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GOP Ascendancy Bodes Ill For Arts Funding

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Started 1 year ago by jeff_r
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rus

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Core_Models wrote >>
And around we go. This whole "it has to pay for itself" argument is tiresome when conservatives won't apply it to their own funding projects like defense. Either you apply it wholesale, or you don't apply it only to projects you just don't like. That goes for defense, arts, rail, etc.
There's a study out there that I've read, and I will absolutely google it up for you when I am not turkey groggy, that for every dollar invested in the arts you gain something like a buck 40 12 months later.

You're ignoring what I'm saying. The ROI argument applies to all spending, including defense.

Said that right here.

So yes, use the same standard. If it doesn't provide the expected benefit, defense, arts, rail, or whatthefuckever, end it.

Why is this such a hard concept for you to accept? Yes, it means some defense spending will go away. Same with arts spending. Same with some entitlement spending.

That's a good thing.

ETA: It's funny. I'm asking for proof of an economic benefit as a condition of funding.

You seem to be saying the benefits of arts funding are intangible and beyond economic, but then claim to have proof of an economic benefit.

If there is an economic benefit... what are we arguing over, again? If there's not, then what exactly is your proof of?

Posted 1 year ago #
gramarye
In Exile
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I'll take a slightly different tack from rus:

Neither defense spending nor arts spending generate true tangible ROI in the narrow sense of the word. In order to quantify the "return" on each, an observer must make certain assumptions about the monetary equivalent value of certain tangible but imperfectly quantifiable benefits, such as security or "vibrant communities" or whatever the putative justification for arts funding is.

Not all benefits that are imperfectly quantifiable are equal, however. Providing security is one of the core imperatives of government and is extraordinarily difficult for the private sector to provide on its own. We can far more easily conceive of a world without the NEA than a world without the DoD, FBI, and the cop on the street. In addition, while security is difficult to quantitatively measure, it is nevertheless a much firmer phenomenon than "vibrancy" or the equivalent. It is not perfectly objective, but it is much closer to being so than any plausible benefit of arts funding, particularly of the kind typically funded by the NEA (which tends not to fund the kind of projects that make "the arts," writ large, as big a sector of the economy as they are, i.e., the mainstream entertainment and publishing industries). In other words, it is much easier to establish that a police force is providing good policing (crime rates are low, crimes that do occur are solved, and people feel safe walking outside after dark) than that an arts funding group is funding good art (Good according to whose tastes? Who made them the decisionmakers? What benefit does this provide to the family in Pataskala who just wants to hit the movie theater on the weekend to see HP7 for their dose of art this week?).

Posted 1 year ago #
rus

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In the broader sense of the term, security is more easily quantified in ROI terms than "vibrancy", or whatever the non-economic benefit of art funding is supposed to be.

Posted 1 year ago #
Chris Sherman
East Franklinton
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just admit it rus you failed art class and you just cant let that go....
that must explain your disdain for for the arts community.

Posted 1 year ago #
rus

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Chris Sherman wrote >>
just admit it rus you failed art class and you just cant let that go....
that must explain your disdain for for the arts community.

HA!

Actually think I did well in art class, way back in the paleolithic era.

It's not so much disdain as "why do you need taxpayer money"? The exact same question that some would ask, rightly so, about recipients of TARP.

Posted 1 year ago #
Chris Sherman
East Franklinton
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well if the banks failed funding the arts would be the least of our problems or concerns i guess.

Posted 1 year ago #
Core_Models
Columbus
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rus wrote >>
In the broader sense of the term, security is more easily quantified in ROI terms than "vibrancy", or whatever the non-economic benefit of art funding is supposed to be.

to you, which is exactly my point.

You'd rather feel safe from foreign invaders, I'd rather have a quality of life improvement via the arts. I'm not foolish enough to ignore that you may not have one without the other, but I'm also not foolish enough to agree that more than a tiny percentage of defense spending actually keeps us from being overrun.

I look back at history, and probably garner more from the Roman Senate directing funds into art than their military...but again, I realize that if they hadn't become a superpower via the military they probably wouldn't have had that opportunity.

Posted 1 year ago #
Core_Models
Columbus
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It's not so much disdain as "why do you need taxpayer money"? The exact same question that some would ask, rightly so, about recipients of TARP.

What was the long term negative impact of that exactly? It cost like 10% of what it was supposed to and probably kept the banking industry afloat. The S&L crisis in the 80's cost WAY MORE, about 1% of the GDP.

I guess I at least give you credit for criticizing a Bush policy.

Posted 1 year ago #
rus

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Chris Sherman wrote >>
well if the banks failed funding the arts would be the least of our problems or concerns i guess.

Kinda the thinking, eh?

Really, I don't want to give the impression I'm against art itself. I'm not.

Only thing I'm concerned about is where scarce resources ( read: federal budget money ) are allocated. Heck, if there is a measurable economic benefit then art funding may even make sense, similar to the arguments for infrastructure spending. Haven't seen that, though.

And yes, I completely concede that defense spending will have to be cut as well as entitlement spending.

Posted 1 year ago #
Chris Sherman
East Franklinton
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let me fix that. well if the banks failed, then funding the arts would be the least of our problems or concerns i guess.

Posted 1 year ago #
Core_Models
Columbus
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And yes, I completely concede that defense spending will have to be cut

Again...

4,451,000,000,000-revenue

677,950,000,000-defense

161,300,000-arts

If I was in debt and making a budget and I made 44,451 a year, spent 6,750 on one expense and 160 bucks on another, I'd probably not spend all that much time looking at the 160 bucks.

You know why I'd consider taking a serious look at that 160 bucks before the almost 7 grand? If it was unpopular. Like if it was for handjobs and the wife didn't approve, then I'd have to get rid of it before I worried about the other giant elephant in the room.

Republican party is the wife, the arts are the handjobs.

Me...I like handjobs and I'm not married.

Posted 1 year ago #
rus

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Core_Models wrote >>

And yes, I completely concede that defense spending will have to be cut

Again...
4,451,000,000,000-revenue
677,950,000,000-defense
161,300,000-arts
If I was in debt and making a budget and I made 44,451 a year, spent 6,750 on one expense and 160 bucks on another, I'd probably not spend all that much time looking at the 160 bucks.
You know why I'd consider taking a serious look at that 160 bucks before the almost 7 grand? If it was unpopular. Like if it was for handjobs and the wife didn't approve, then I'd have to get rid of it before I worried about the other giant elephant in the room.
Republican party is the wife, the arts are the handjobs.
Me...I like handjobs and I'm not married.

Or if you knew the 6,750 was the wife's shoe budget... getting her to cut that will take some effort, so you go after the 160 first to get her support for slashing her shoe budget.

ETA: Art funding as handjobs. Wow. *snicker*

Posted 1 year ago #
Core_Models
Columbus
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LOL...if the wife's shoe budget is 15% of what we make, they better have HUGE heels and she better wear them to bed.

Posted 1 year ago #
rus

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Core_Models wrote >>
LOL...if the wife's shoe budget is 15% of what we make, they better have HUGE heels and she better wear them to bed.

Seriously. Those better be some sturdy handles.

Posted 1 year ago #
Chris Sherman
East Franklinton
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one thing to to consider is awarded grant money needs to be matched by the recipients. lets say the frankilnton arts district gets 2000, we need to match and prove in our final report that we had matching funds. that is required by the NEA, private endowments, the united way, GCAC, OAL and the long list of others. the private sector def contributes. we are an arts organization in a struggling inner city neighborhood. we are comprised of artists, a resident{me}, and many others. you think its easy to fund what we do? its not. i would say our work has had an extremely measurable effect in the community. it has brought a new awareness and attention to a pretty much forgotten corner of our city. who knows maybe it will lay the path for something better in the future. just in my corner of the hood we now have rain brothers, thoughtco, several new like minded property owners. was this a result of the work of FAD? is it the cheap rents and property? is it the close proximity to downtown and the other centralized neighborhoods? who knows. maybe its all the above? i LOVE handjobs.

Posted 1 year ago #
rus

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Chris Sherman wrote >>
i would say our work has had an extremely measurable effect in the community. it has brought a new awareness and attention to a pretty much forgotten corner of our city. who knows maybe it will lay the path for something better in the future.

See, that's what I'm getting at. If there's a measurable, quantifiable benefit then it's worth using that benefit to evaluate if the expenditure is viable.

Posted 1 year ago #
Chris Sherman
East Franklinton
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if art can help development gain traction in a poor neighborhood i think its worth something. if CDC's and other neighborhood nonprofits and organizations can benefit from the artists and their initiatives its gotta be money well spent. this day and age everyone needs all the help they can get, specifically when it come to urban revitalization in our poorest neighborhoods. im afraid this recent political tidal change doesn't take this into consideration.

Posted 1 year ago #
rus

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Chris Sherman wrote >>
if art can help development gain traction in a poor neighborhood i think its worth something. if CDC's and other neighborhood nonprofits and organizations can benefit from the artists and their initiatives its gotta be money well spent. this day and age everyone needs all the help they can get, specifically when it come to urban revitalization in our poorest neighborhoods. im afraid this recent political tidal change doesn't take this into consideration.

Then quantify the benefit.

I'll admit, when I think of art I do not think of urban revitalization, but if you can show how x amount of funding generated Y amount of economic activity that's a real justification for that funding.

Don't appeal to anyone's better nature; they may not have one. Run the numbers: pick a project funded by grants that generated some kind of success. Show that the funding, as an investment, had a return.

Like Merc said, the article is pure speculation, but it's an easy bet that funding will have to be cut across the board.

Posted 1 year ago #
Chris Sherman
East Franklinton
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Well one example may be artists move into a neighborhood. They get funding for a community arts project. It goes well, they apply and receive more grants to do other things like events and gardening. So now the gardening and co op gallery are getting attention. Now Let's say there are 2 or 3 previously existing neighborhood nonprofit organizations that grant money and tax dollars and stimulus money are used to create programs, rehab and build housing, economic development like a SID. The arts, gardening, and cultural influx has created attention, people start buying homes from the nonprofit housing group. Business starts up an utilizes the economic development group, the neighborhood utilizes the SID more effectively. Funding the arts can also help other organizations flourish , use their funding more efficiently in the long run maybe. I'm not a computer guy, I'm not going dig up numbers on google. I'm just going to give that example. Off to bed, 5am lowes doorbusters! I need to buy more tools to work on studio and event space that's being created in the neighborhood. Oh don't worry no tax dollars were spent on this one, they were just created.

Posted 1 year ago #
rus

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So, then, your metrics would be increased home sales, especially of rehabbed stock, yes? Add in business start ups.

For public grants, calculate the real estate taxes paid by the new home owners and sales taxes from the business start ups ( yeah, estimates for the latter ).

Good luck with the lowes doorbuster.

Posted 1 year ago #

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