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Started 3 years ago by lifeontwowheels
Latest reply from gramarye

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biking
crime

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rus

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Snarf wrote >>
anyone that wants a fight, probably hasn't been in one.

True enough, but it doesn't take two people to start a fight. Just one.

Posted 3 years ago #
JonMyers
HCMC, Vietnam ✈
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@Kitoba - No, we don't live in a place where the total rule of law has collapsed. Columbus is relatively safe. I have spent time in areas where I've witnessed vigilante justice. I saw it a few times in Calcutta and truthfully I remember thinking it was an efficient mechanism. If the Columbus police fail to protect the public then yes, vigilante justice is permissible in my mind. You're telling me that somehow the public knows some streets are bad streets, yet the police fail to get that message and protect? By all means then street justice should prevail if city services don't have their act together.

That's not to say actions you take to defend yourself in Columbus aren't without legal consequence. They are and it's up to the individual how much risk they're willing to take on.

I'm not a gun owner and haven't really cared to be one. I don't see it in my future. I'm not afraid. Anyhow, if people have the proper permits and are protecting themselves I have no problem with it.

In terms of being forced to live in an area. I don't know the personal circumstances of the attackers. However, if they're adults and have some form of a roof over their head that would suggest they would have some budget to work with. None the less, I don't think where you grew up gives you a pass and gives you the right to mindlessly, violently assault someone.

In terms of "indulging in unprovoked violence". No I would not indulge nor would I just be a bystander to primal violence. Yes "indulging in unprovoked violence" for sport or personal gain makes one an animal. Like I said, violence is a last resort, but if it gets to that point I'm not going to sit back and take it.

Posted 3 years ago #
ChrisSunami
King-Lincoln District
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I'm not trying to give anyone a pass for their behavior. But I do firmly believe that one of the chief things that separates me from being a mere animal is my reverence for human life and my respect for the humanity of all persons regardless of their actions.

The problem with vigilante justice is the question of who decides who is worth living and who deserves to die. There's only the thinnest of lines between a vigilante judge and a lynch mob.

Take a look back at your post. You suggested that the victim should have tried to "destroy" --I assume that means kill --as many of the attackers as possible. So you go from one person being beaten up to several people being killed --that's an escalation of the violence already, and potentially includes people who were in the wrong place at the wrong time, and just too scared to play hero.

Next we can assume would come the revenge killings --probably including some completely unconnected people who bear the brunt of the outpouring of anger. Then, since we're advocating vigilante justice, we need to send out a group to hunt down and kill those killers, and so forth. At least that's the general principle we're operating under, right?

Posted 3 years ago #
JonMyers
HCMC, Vietnam ✈
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kitoba wrote >>
I'm not trying to give anyone a pass for their behavior. But I do firmly believe that one of the chief things that separates me from being a mere animal is my reverence for human life and my respect for the humanity of all persons regardless of their actions.
The problem with vigilante justice is the question of who decides who is worth living and who deserves to die. There's only the thinnest of lines between a vigilante judge and a lynch mob.
Take a look back at your post. You suggested that the victim should have tried to "destroy" --I assume that means kill --as many of the attackers as possible. So you go from one person being beaten up to several people being killed --that's an escalation of the violence already, and potentially includes people who were in the wrong place at the wrong time, and just too scared to play hero.
Next we can assume would come the revenge killings --probably including some completely unconnected people who bear the brunt of the outpouring of anger. Then, since we're advocating vigilante justice, we need to send out a group to hunt down and kill those killers, and so forth. At least that's the general principle we're operating under, right?

Well, I've realized we've digressed (gasp, I'm guilty as well) from the original point and somehow drifted into vigilante justice. I'll take the blame. Anyhow - again, my point is that if I had to I would respond to violence with violence. Obviously your value system and point of view would not support that, which is fine. That will never work for me.

Posted 3 years ago #
Thory
Asheville, NC
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We're all animals at heart.

eta: The attackers are some messed up characters, but people like that will always be around. So many stories deplete my faith in humanity, and I'm amazed that there are enough good people out there to bring it back.

Posted 3 years ago #
hugh59
Aboard the ultimate power in Olde Towne East
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I say: "Phased plasma rifle in the 40 watt range."

The problem with any of us trying to use violence to protect ourselves is that the people attacking us are probably more comfortable using violence. That gives the attackers an advantage.

If the cyclist had been carrying a weapon he probably would have been unable to draw it while he was being beaten. If he had, there is probably a good chance that his attackers would have been able to take the gun from him. Any bets on what would have happened then?

One reason we have a criminal justice system is to prevent vigilante justice. If you get a mob formed to go after a criminal, all kinds of mistakes can happen. The lack of experience and procedures just invites errors.

Posted 3 years ago #
gramarye
In Exile
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There's a difference between vigilante justice and self-defense. Self-defense is when someone uses force against you first and the incident is still underway. Vigilante justice is where you come back later with a dozen of your friends armed to the teeth looking for payback. If the cyclist had been armed, he would have been well within his legal and moral rights to defend himself. However, I agree with Hugh's assessment of what would have likely happened: he'd have lost the weapon, and things would have gone downhill after that.

I support CCW rights. However, in practice, a much better defense than a concealed weapon is a very unconcealed second, third, or fourth person alongside you.

Posted 3 years ago #