Walker
The KLD / Downtown
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do roads pay for themselves?
01/06/2011
In the US, the answer is no, not even close, according to new work by USPIRG:
Gasoline taxes aren’t “user fees†in any meaningful sense of the term – The amount of money a particular driver pays in gasoline taxes bears little relationship to his or her use of roads funded by gas taxes.
READ MORE: http://www.humantransit.org/2011/01/do-roads-pay-for-themselves.html
Core_Models
Columbus
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Paul wrote >>
I wonder if they pay for themselves once you factor in business development that has resulted from roads?
That's the tricky part to me, because certainly I'd think the building of the road in the first place does...but the improvement projects are another matter all together.
Take the 70/71 split project, priced at 550M. Will that actually add any development? Without actually building caps (which this doesn't) I can't imagine how it would, which would seem to make an argument that a larger project would make more sense than the 550M project on the table now. Actually do it all, build the caps, even if the price tag jumps another 100M and you may actually see some return on the investment.
CooperGuy
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It all depends on who/what someone chooses to believe...
(Comment and link lifted from a poster in the article referenced above)
Is there any work on this question from academics who have more standing as unbiased analysts? PIRG doesn't qualify on neutral predisposition any better than the Heritage Foundation, which has its own report on the question posted here: http://www.heritage.org/research/reports/2009/06/federal-transportation-programs-shortchange-motorists-update-of-a-usdot-study
Posted by: JN_Seattle | 01/08/2011 at 16:49
In December 2004, the Bureau of Transportation Statistics at the U.S. Department of Transportation (USDOT) published its first and last report on the cost of the federal subsidies provided to each mode of transportation per passenger per 1,000 miles: cars, buses, airplanes, transit, and passenger railroad. The survey covered the years 1990 to 2002 and demonstrated that motorists received the lowest federal subsidy per 1,000 passenger-miles and that transit and Amtrak received by far the largest federal subsidies.[1]
Walker
The KLD / Downtown
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Paul wrote >>
I wonder if they pay for themselves once you factor in business development that has resulted from roads?
Quite possibly. Probably varies from project to project, of course. It would be nice if we had a standardized way to semi-accurately measure that effect and use it across all forms of transportation infrastructure.
Core_Models wrote >>
That's the tricky part to me, because certainly I'd think the building of the road in the first place does...but the improvement projects are another matter all together.
To take it a step further, do road upgrades and infrastructure improvements on one road, which has a detrimental effect on development on a neighboring road, counterbalance what was lost? There's a bypass on Route 30 east of Wooster that was finished a few years ago. Cuts down our travel time when visiting family near Canton by about 15 minutes, but the little town (and 2 or 3 stoplights) that it bypasses have suffered from the lack of traffic coming through the area.
ToddAnders
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While that may be true for moving people, imagine how much faster goods move through that route. Having 71 and 70 intersect in Columbus has a direct correlation to ecomomic development in the distribution of goods here in Columbus and within a 100 mile radius of us.
Walker
The KLD / Downtown
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There's definitely a logistics and time-saving benefit. Something to be considered, but still there's plenty of other things to offset. If 70/71 is the example, just look at the impact it had on Downtown, The Near East Side and neighboring communities. Around 100,000 people have moved away, and hundreds of buildings razed during the decades that followed when 70/71 was first built. How much economical impact did that have on the area? I'm not even sure if there's a good way to measure the long lasting effect that's had on our region.
ToddAnders
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I would say you are correct, it has driven SOME people from center cities, but not all. The "white flight" was set in motion way before these roads divided our cities.
But, let's just look at Columbus and our 100 mile radius and business located here b/c of the ease of transportation:
Cardinal Health
Limited Brands
Big Lots
A&F
Greif
Worthington Industries
Scotts Miracle Gro
DSW/Value City
Lancaster Colony
Rocky
RG Barry
And these are just ones I can think of off hand who manufacture and/or distribute goods
Now, that being said, if I were in Columbus and had to travel to the west coast, my perferance would be Route 40, not I 70
cbennie
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Mr. Walker, why do you hate roads and cars so badly? Why are you so obsessed with public transportation? Do you own a car yourself? You seem to start and participate in more threads on this site related to this stuff than anything else. What's driving that? Sorry for the pun :)
cyclist II
Short North & Peach District
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cbennie wrote >>
Mr. Walker, why do you hate roads and cars so badly? Why are you so obsessed with public transportation? Do you own a car yourself? You seem to start and participate in more threads on this site related to this stuff than anything else. What's driving that? Sorry for the pun :)
Cars are glass and metal death traps. Walker owns and operates Columbus Underground. What happened to Columbusite?
Walker
The KLD / Downtown
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cbennie wrote >>
Mr. Walker, why do you hate roads and cars so badly? Why are you so obsessed with public transportation? Do you own a car yourself? You seem to start and participate in more threads on this site related to this stuff than anything else. What's driving that? Sorry for the pun :)
I'm willing to bet that I start more threads on this site than everyone else on every topic. ;)
I don't hate cars or roads, we do own a car, and I don't think anything I've said in this topic indicates any level of "hatred" directed at anything. I post these types of articles to share information and in the hopes that people are open to thinking more objectively and critically about all forms of transportation. Mostly, I'm asking questions. I think that many people aren't willing to give public transit a fair shake while glossing over the impact that roads can have both financially and environmentally simply because it's what we've grown accustom to.
Hope that answers your personal questions before returning to the topic at hand. ;)
StowCbusCleveland
Jackson Township, Canton, OH
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I'd say dollar for dollar the answer is absolutely not. When you consider all of the benefits that come from mobility, both financial and otherwise, I think roads are a net positive. It's the same explanation that should be used for virtually all transportation projects, because there isn't really a difference between roads, rail, airports, etc. They are all transportation projects.
GCrites80s
5xNW
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CooperGuy wrote >>
In December 2004, the Bureau of Transportation Statistics at the U.S. Department of Transportation (USDOT) published its first and last report on the cost of the federal subsidies provided to each mode of transportation per passenger per 1,000 miles: cars, buses, airplanes, transit, and passenger railroad. The survey covered the years 1990 to 2002 and demonstrated that motorists received the lowest federal subsidy per 1,000 passenger-miles and that transit and Amtrak received by far the largest federal subsidies.[1][/i]
Read more
Back in 1990 to 2002, Highway construction/maintenance materials and labor were much cheaper and inflation had not eroded purchasing power of the flat-rate-per-gallon gas taxes. Therefore, fuel taxes collected in those days were much more capable of maintaining the highway system than they are today.
Antonio
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Of course they pay for themselves.
The logistics to feed the country would be a nightmare with out them.
How would you like to pay 3 or 4 times the costs for food ?
Before I-71 it would take 9 hours by truck from Cleveland to Columbus. The journey was on dangerous two lane roads that traversed small town after small town. Transportation costs would have killed the economy a long time ago with out them.
CooperGuy
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ToddAnders wrote >>
But, let's just look at Columbus and our 100 mile radius and business located here b/c of the ease of transportation:
Cardinal Health
Limited Brands
Big Lots
A&F
Greif
Worthington Industries
Scotts Miracle Gro
DSW/Value City
Lancaster Colony
Rocky
RG Barry
And these are just ones I can think of off hand who manufacture and/or distribute goods
I'll add the biggee - Honda.
Anheuser-Busch
Core_Models
Columbus
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Antonio wrote >>
Of course they pay for themselves.
So tell me where 550M spent on the 70/71 split pays for itself under the current design? No one is questioning that roads, in general, are a great thing...but there also has to be a breakeven point on spending, otherwise they'd all be paved in solid gold.
rus
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cbennie wrote >>
At its most basic level, Columbus does not have (thankfully) the population density to warrant the huge infrastructure expenses associated with public transportation beyond busses. It would be overkill here IMO.
Kinda makes me wonder... is the advocacy for intracity rail really an advocacy for high density living?
Not in terms of "hidden agenda", but more as a statement of preference?
ToddAnders
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Totally forgot about AB and Honda; and for Honda all of their suppliers, SHOWA in Sunbury come to mind at first. Yep, got a little road pay there.
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