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Define 'real job'

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Started 11 months ago by TomOver
Latest reply from JonMyers

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BuenaVista
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myliftkk said:
Fascinating read on the "real jobs" that are out there for the blue collar workforce.

http://www.huffingtonpost.com/2011/12/20/new-blue-collar-temp-warehouses_n_1158490.html?page=1

Also fascinating is the linked comparison of Costco vs Walmart/Sam's Club corporate culture and that size itself really has nothing itself to do with culture.

Probably one of the worst written articles ever. First off, Walmart accepts foodstamps, I spent them there last night. Second of all, people have worked for temp agencies forever, I did it when I was 18 and had her exact same job, except I worked at a Best Buy warehouse. What I realized is that I hate work like that, so I decided to get in school.

Posted 5 months ago #
TomOver
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JonMyers said:

I do think adaptability is key as well. It always has been, but... I think we're coming off a period where you could survive quite nicely with minimal adaptation. That's winding down.

Hey Jon, if I recall your other posts correctly, you've mentioned this pertaining to our monetary system, using Argentina as an imperfect reference point.

I'm not sure about the extent to which you think it's likely that the US dollar will lose most of its value, leading to the creation of a new US currency. But how much do you think this "winding down" you refer to is not just economic, but political also ?

For example, consider the concentration of economic power---ie, a few corporations dominating agriculture, finance, media, and so on---combined with the attacks on our political freedoms in the name of the 'War on Terror.'

And lastly, to what extent is this "winding down" ecologically driven --ie, peak oil, climate change, or water insecurity ? Thanks

Posted 5 months ago #
TomOver
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derm said:
I got to be a stay at home dad for a few years when my kids were preschool and kindergarten ages. No pay, looked on with derision a fair amount of time, long hours. Did have great benefits. Best job I ever had.

To what extent does it seem men and boys may have benefited from the women's rights movement ?

Posted 5 months ago #
derm
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TomOver said:
To what extent does it seem men and boys may have benefited from the women's rights movement ?

I dont know. I grew up in house with many sisters and a strong mom and an open minded dad. They did not struggle to be heard. The job of stay at home dad may suck if measured against most things by a dad that may be insecure with what they do in general or dont have a positive outlook or dont enjoy being around their kids. In my case, I was(and am) a Veterinarian in private practice and literally went from medicine and surgery to playdates at the zoo in a three day period. I left busy, stressful, long hour job to basically play with my kids. Every day. Derision rolled off my back like water off a duck's. The derision was not by friends or locals or peers, but by strangers funny enough. I had time to volunteer in school, local groups, the library, etc and had great positive feedback. I would actually get comments from strangers in public that were negative, being out shopping in jeans a tshirt and unshaven at 10am on a tuesday. In retrospect it is hilarious.

Posted 5 months ago #
cheap
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derm said:
I would actually get comments from strangers in public that were negative, being out shopping in jeans a tshirt and unshaven at 10am on a tuesday. In retrospect it is hilarious.

Posted 5 months ago #
myliftkk
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BuenaVista said:
Probably one of the worst written articles ever. First off, Walmart accepts foodstamps, I spent them there last night. Second of all, people have worked for temp agencies forever, I did it when I was 18 and had her exact same job, except I worked at a Best Buy warehouse. What I realized is that I hate work like that, so I decided to get in school.

Really, that's your critique for "worst article evah"?

First, the article never said Walmart didn't take food stamps, it said the woman refused to take them there. That is just a slight, but important difference.

Second, the article never said temp agencies hadn't existed since time immemorial. It said the idea of a temp agency (supplying workers for a temporary job), had been subverted to mean supplying temporary workers for a permanent job.

You'll need to try harder...

Posted 5 months ago #
TomOver
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One or more persons using this thread has suggested the distinction between jobs and work, with the latter being a more general term to denote effort.

Regarding effort, while a Boatswain’s Mate Petty Officer Third Class in the Navy, I was at times self-righteous toward those few subordinates who seemed to not want to exert effort of any sort, at least not when it came to things related to the smooth operation of our ship, the USS Denver (LPD-9), God rest her soul.

But later on in life, it occurred to me that whatever effort I exert, I am ultimately doing it because of the satisfaction it brings me on some level. That’s the case whether my efforts are part of formal employment or part of a lifestyle choice such as cycling instead of driving. Given I’m doing it out of enlightened self-interest, I shouldn’t be ostentatious or preachy about it.

Even those of us who seem to not exert effort when it comes to formal employment, likely try hard in at least some other aspects of our lives. Where we don’t, it may be because we don’t see what’s in it for us.

But let’s not only consider refraining from judging one another when it comes to what we do or don’t expend effort on, let’s also consider withholding praise when it comes to how hard a person does or doesn’t try.

Intense and sustained effort is not necessarily virtuous in and of itself. Whether our efforts are creditable or otherwise valuable depends on the goal we’re working toward. For example, a serial killer might work hard to lure her or his victims, cover up the crimes, and evade capture. But are her or his efforts honorable ?

So what should be our standard for knowing when, how, and much to praise one another publicly and when to ascribe high social status, and when to give tangible and intangible rewards to one another for our efforts ?

To me, it makes sense that behaviors conducive to the health of our communities and to society in general ought to engender public praise and enhanced social status for those engaged in them. But admiring someone simply for working hard reflects a distorted sense of priorities, often rewarding unthinking obedience and conformity.

But a more prevalent deviation from a proper measurement of valuable effort occurs when we respect someone solely because he or she has material wealth. Similarly, some of us may tend to assume the worst about someone’s character just because that person has relatively little wealth. Since we’re social animals, what we think of one another’s efforts matters.

Posted 5 months ago #
cheap
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tom,you would make a killing selling cars

Posted 5 months ago #
BuenaVista
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myliftkk said:
Really, that's your critique for "worst article evah"?

First, the article never said Walmart didn't take food stamps, it said the woman refused to take them there. That is just a slight, but important difference.

Second, the article never said temp agencies hadn't existed since time immemorial. It said the idea of a temp agency (supplying workers for a temporary job), had been subverted to mean supplying temporary workers for a permanent job.

You'll need to try harder...

I read the part about Wal Mart wrong, but temp agencies have been like that forever. I was hired in for what was supposed to be a perm position but I worked for the temp agency, this was in 1999. I don't feel sorry for her or the other workers there. I know what type of people have jobs like that, and they have them for a reason. Let's not kid ourselves. We can't save everyone.

Posted 5 months ago #
TomOver
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cheap said:
tom,you would make a killing selling cars

Know of dealerships hiring ? Hell, I've made the bulk of my income the past several years serving factory farmed corpses of chickens, pigs, and cows. Might as well convince people they ought to buy a car or truck.

If pedicabbing thru the winter doesn't cover all of my expenses, perhaps I'll be forced to revisit the schism between my values and practical necessity. I venture I would not be alone in that. Others may find themselves having to promote destructive things in order to keep from being homeless. I guess each person decides for themselves where they draw the line.

One possible consolation of selling cars, as opposed to serving murdered and tortured animals, is that many people actually have little by way of alternatives to using automobiles for getting around greater Columbus---unlike the folk who could eat vegan if they wanted to.

Posted 5 months ago #
DavidF
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BuenaVista said:
I read the part about Wal Mart wrong, but temp agencies have been like that forever. I was hired in for what was supposed to be a perm position but I worked for the temp agency, this was in 1999. I don't feel sorry for her or the other workers there. I know what type of people have jobs like that, and they have them for a reason. Let's not kid ourselves. We can't save everyone.

I know what "type" of people put up posts like that. Let's not kid ourselves. We can't have a rational discussion with everyone.

Posted 5 months ago #
myliftkk
Columbus, OH
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BuenaVista said:
I read the part about Wal Mart wrong, but temp agencies have been like that forever. I was hired in for what was supposed to be a perm position but I worked for the temp agency, this was in 1999. I don't feel sorry for her or the other workers there. I know what type of people have jobs like that, and they have them for a reason. Let's not kid ourselves. We can't save everyone.

I don't think the article is asking for you to reach for your box of tissues. I think it's saying that temporary employment agencies, far from providing companies the liquidity of flexing staff at key times (which is how they justify their existence), are being systematically used by major retailers to exploit a large pool of workers while providing indemnification to their customer base.

What kind of people exactly have warehouse jobs? I worked in a major UPS facility for 6 years when I was in college, and we never had temp agencies provide us with workers, even for seasonal periods. The difference, I walked away after graduation w/ a company 401k, never went without health insurance, and was making nearly 30k with full-time hours (and this was in the 90s) when I quit. But, then I had a union, even with all its numerous flaws (and their sins were many), that looked after my interests while I busted my ass for the company.

Posted 5 months ago #
JonMyers
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TomOver said:
Hey Jon, if I recall your other posts correctly, you've mentioned this pertaining to our monetary system, using Argentina as an imperfect reference point.

I'm not sure about the extent to which you think it's likely that the US dollar will lose most of its value, leading to the creation of a new US currency. But how much do you think this "winding down" you refer to is not just economic, but political also ?

For example, consider the concentration of economic power---ie, a few corporations dominating agriculture, finance, media, and so on---combined with the attacks on our political freedoms in the name of the 'War on Terror.'

And lastly, to what extent is this "winding down" ecologically driven --ie, peak oil, climate change, or water insecurity ? Thanks

Tom, regarding Argentina, yes - in a roundabout way. However, I was probably drawing overall comparisons between US economic follies and Argentina's economic mismanagement, debt burden, and printing of money to pay off debt, which heavily contributed to their default in 2002.

On a similar note of centralization, debt and subsequent economic collapse. My GF and I are living in Bangkok/ SE Asia right now, and have been here for the last month. We've been in some interesting conversations regarding the Asian financial crisis, which began here in Thailand. Though the root causes were quite different, the resulting moves to "restore economic confidence" at the point of collapse were similar to that of Argentina's moves.

For individuals in both of these places, which experienced collapse - these moves to "restore economic confidence" usually boil down to this - it becomes hard as hell to move your money to a safer place. If…… you can even gain access to your money.

I don't know if it's likely that the US dollar will lose most of its value given the dependencies that prop up its value in the first place. That said, it's safe to say there is a strong possibility that in our lifetime it will not be the world's defacto currency.

In terms of the creation of a new US currency all together? I seriously doubt it. That approach rarely works. If the dollar goes necessitating the creation of a new currency the global confidence in the US is dead and we'll take a lot of other countries down with us.

When I say things are winding down I mean that the time when you can be average is done. It's been done for a while, but its effects are just now catching up. This holds true for individuals (workers), companies, government, etc… Average from 10 years ago is below average today. Average today will be below average in 10 years. If you or these institutions aren't constantly innovating and evolving you're in trouble. Personally, that thought keeps me paranoid and driven to constantly build on my skills.

Regarding work or a "real job" (the theme of this thread). I certainly see this all as being connected.

Posted 5 months ago #
TomOver
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JonMyers said:
Tom, regarding Argentina, yes - in a roundabout way. However, I was probably drawing overall comparisons between US economic follies and Argentina's economic mismanagement, debt burden, and printing of money to pay off debt, which heavily contributed to their default in 2002.

On a similar note of centralization, debt and subsequent economic collapse. My GF and I are living in Bangkok/ SE Asia right now, and have been here for the last month. We've been in some interesting conversations regarding the Asian financial crisis, which began here in Thailand. Though the root causes were quite different, the resulting moves to "restore economic confidence" at the point of collapse were similar to that of Argentina's moves.

For individuals in both of these places, which experienced collapse - these moves to "restore economic confidence" usually boil down to this - it becomes hard as hell to move your money to a safer place. If…… you can even gain access to your money.

I don't know if it's likely that the US dollar will lose most of its value given the dependencies that prop up its value in the first place. That said, it's safe to say there is a strong possibility that in our lifetime it will not be the world's defacto currency.

In terms of the creation of a new US currency all together? I seriously doubt it. That approach rarely works. If the dollar goes necessitating the creation of a new currency the global confidence in the US is dead and we'll take a lot of other countries down with us.

When I say things are winding down I mean that the time when you can be average is done. It's been done for a while, but its effects are just now catching up. This holds true for individuals (workers), companies, government, etc… Average from 10 years ago is below average today. Average today will be below average in 10 years. If you or these institutions aren't constantly innovating and evolving you're in trouble. Personally, that thought keeps me paranoid and driven to constantly build on my skills.

Regarding work or a "real job" (the theme of this thread). I certainly see this all as being connected.

Jon, what industry do you work in ? Thanks

Posted 5 months ago #
JonMyers
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TomOver said:
Jon, what industry do you work in ? Thanks

Depends. I guess usually business to business internet, software, and product development/ commercialization.

Posted 5 months ago #