Parker
Franklinton
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CooperGuy wrote >>
Parker wrote Nope, that noise will go somewhere.
.Right into sound absorbing walls.
Ah yes, the +5 magical walls of might sound gobbling; the walls with no blueprints or designs that mystically whisk away noise; the walls that, although a sound study simulated, do not exist and have no blueprints.
BeerMan
Hilliard, OH
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Ok, You guys win. Let's cancel the whole project. There is obviously nothing that can be done with that stadium without destroying the pristine environment of the area. So I'll call Mr Schottenstein tomorrow & tell him to save his money. Obviously all of you faceless people know a whole lot more about how to revitalize an area than he does.
Maybe we can get the government to drain more money from the rich guys so they can put another park in that location. That is sure to be a much better seed for development in Franklinton, because we would probably have way more businesses fighting to move into Columbus if they could look out their window & see a park next door.
Or maybe we could build that wonderful Sky Garden that Mary Rinehard wants. After all, that concept would only cost $100,000,000 & we can just tax the rich guys for that. I realize that no "Sky Garden" has ever been built, but I'm sure that it will work perfectly since it is a "green" proposal, and there is no such thing as a bad "green" proposal. I can hardly wait to drive my Prius down to Franklinton to buy my $55 watermelons.
Or maybe we could build some more office space, because Columbus can't possibly have enough empty office pace yet. We may not be able to fill that space with businesses yet, but at least we will employ some union construction workers while it is being built.
Oh wait, I know. Maybe we could build some really nice government housing projects on the site. Once again, we could pay for it with money from the evil rich guys. And I know we have had a severe shortage of housing projects ever since those old buildings were torn down in that area several years ago. We could put people in those apartments for free & I'm sure they would take care of the property.
This whole argument against Cooper Park has become so ridiculous. I never seem to hear any of the people closest to the stadium complaining. All I hear from them is "Why is this thing taking so long? I'm dying to apply for a job there." Yet, you do-gooders who are farther away act like it is going to ruin your life.
And don't even begin to insist that you are worried about the noise. If you were worried about noise you wouldn't be living in an uban environment anyway. If you don't like cars, that's fine. If you just don't like change, that's fine. If you're afraid of the unknown, that's fine. At least those would be honest reasons.
I received a threatening call the other day & the guy screamed that he would never be for this project because the developer is a millionaire. I was upset by this, because obviously that guy doesn't realize that he's never going to get a job from a poor guy. But then I thought "I may not like his opinion, but at least he was being honest."
You may not like my opinion, but it is honest.
BeerMan
Hilliard, OH
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Parker wrote >>
CooperGuy wrote >>
Parker wrote Nope, that noise will go somewhere.
.Right into sound absorbing walls.
Ah yes, the +5 magical walls of might sound gobbling; the walls with no blueprints or designs that mystically whisk away noise; the walls that, although a sound study simulated, do not exist and have no blueprints.
Sound walls like this DO exist in several places. One of those places is a short section of sound wall on Highway 42 where it passes over US 23 in Delaware.
Accoustic sound absorbing material is nothing new. You see it in music studios and theaters all the time.
There are no blueprints for the R&D Tech Center either. Do you doubt that it exists? Blueprints don't get produced until the project is approved.
CooperGuy
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Really?
Throwing up a dark youtube video with no info, (but with racing sounds that are strikingly similar to an Indy car) and showing a photo of the area around the Portland International Raceway - a 2 mile road course and drag strip, which featured full blown Indy car racing (until 2007 I believe) while implying that this is what the relatively small, 1/2 mile, sound protected oval at Cooper would sound like, is truly sad.
Are you also counting on most casual readers associating that oval in the picture, a horse racing track, with Cooper?
But it is appreciated, it demonstrates another Franklinton-esque area in that there's industrial and dense residential development with a race track nearby. That will be very useful.
Parker
Franklinton
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BeerMan wrote >>
Ok, You guys win. Let's cancel the whole project. There is obviously nothing that can be done with that stadium without destroying the pristine environment of the area. So I'll call Mr Schottenstein tomorrow & tell him to save his money. Obviously all of you faceless people know a whole lot more about how to revitalize an area than he does.
Maybe we can get the government to drain more money from the rich guys so they can put another park in that location. That is sure to be a much better seed for development in Franklinton, because we would probably have way more businesses fighting to move into Columbus if they could look out their window & see a park next door.
Or maybe we could build that wonderful Sky Garden that Mary Rinehard wants. After all, that concept would only cost $100,000,000 & we can just tax the rich guys for that. I realize that no "Sky Garden" has ever been built, but I'm sure that it will work perfectly since it is a "green" proposal, and there is no such thing as a bad "green" proposal. I can hardly wait to drive my Prius down to Franklinton to buy my $55 watermelons.
Or maybe we could build some more office space, because Columbus can't possibly have enough empty office pace yet. We may not be able to fill that space with businesses yet, but at least we will employ some union construction workers while it is being built.
Oh wait, I know. Maybe we could build some really nice government housing projects on the site. Once again, we could pay for it with money from the evil rich guys. And I know we have had a severe shortage of housing projects ever since those old buildings were torn down in that area several years ago. We could put people in those apartments for free & I'm sure they would take care of the property.
This whole argument against Cooper Park has become so ridiculous. I never seem to hear any of the people closest to the stadium complaining. All I hear from them is "Why is this thing taking so long? I'm dying to apply for a job there." Yet, you do-gooders who are farther away act like it is going to ruin your life.
And don't even begin to insist that you are worried about the noise. If you were worried about noise you wouldn't be living in an uban environment anyway. If you don't like cars, that's fine. If you just don't like change, that's fine. If you're afraid of the unknown, that's fine. At least those would be honest reasons.
I received a threatening call the other day & the guy screamed that he would never be for this project because the developer is a millionaire. I was upset by this, because obviously that guy doesn't realize that he's never going to get a job from a poor guy. But then I thought "I may not like his opinion, but at least he was being honest."
You may not like my opinion, but it is honest.
Perfect, I'll call the Commissioners and ask them to begin accepting proposals.
While the examples are absurd, there is no reason to call anyone in this discussion and yell at them. There is no reason to beleive that Arshot are evil rich guys. Okay, they are rich guys, but who said they are evil? Misguided and uninformed maybe, but certinaly not evil. In fact, they have developed a number of very nice properties around town but that doesn't mean they are always right.
That said, whose opinion is dishonest? It's a real stretch to insist that only the rich guys pay for things. It's also incorrect to portray tax abated property as somehow not including public subsidy, or that the low sale price of the property is also not a gift. But why make this an issue about class? This is about noise.
groundrules
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CooperGuy wrote >>
Really?
Throwing up a dark youtube video with no info, (but with racing sounds that are strikingly similar to an Indy car) and showing a photo of the area around the Portland International Raceway - a 2 mile road course and drag strip, which featured full blown Indy car racing (until 2007 I believe) while implying that this is what the relatively small, 1/2 mile, sound protected oval at Cooper would sound like, is truly sad.
Are you also counting on most casual readers associating that oval in the picture, a horse racing track, with Cooper?
But it is appreciated, it demonstrates another Franklinton-esque area in that there's industrial and dense residential development with a race track nearby. That will be very useful.
I'm sad? You're being a dick.
look, video is one I took in september of 2010 with my regular camera. I took it back when this debate was hot last year, and I thought it fascinating that i was witnessing a similar scenario. The info is in my post: It's from a house 1.2 miles away from the track on a saturday night. I'm sorry it's dark (actually i'm not really sorry) but I'm pretty sure the visuals aren't the point.
I'm not counting on anyone mistaking the oval horse track for anything. I think people with brain enough to care will easily identify the road course in the photo. Funny that you say is sounds like indy cars, since that's not what they were. good job. If you wanna cast doubt on the authenticity of the thing, so be it- the sandbox is clearly big enough for even your head.
BeerMan
Hilliard, OH
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groundrules wrote >>
CooperGuy wrote >>
Really?
Throwing up a dark youtube video with no info, (but with racing sounds that are strikingly similar to an Indy car) and showing a photo of the area around the Portland International Raceway - a 2 mile road course and drag strip, which featured full blown Indy car racing (until 2007 I believe) while implying that this is what the relatively small, 1/2 mile, sound protected oval at Cooper would sound like, is truly sad.
Are you also counting on most casual readers associating that oval in the picture, a horse racing track, with Cooper?
But it is appreciated, it demonstrates another Franklinton-esque area in that there's industrial and dense residential development with a race track nearby. That will be very useful.I'm sad? You're being a dick.
look, video is one I took in september of 2010 with my regular camera. I took it back when this debate was hot last year, and I thought it fascinating that i was witnessing a similar scenario. The info is in my post: It's from a house 1.2 miles away from the track on a saturday night. I'm sorry it's dark (actually i'm not really sorry) but I'm pretty sure the visuals aren't the point.
I'm not counting on anyone mistaking the oval horse track for anything. I think people with brain enough to care will easily identify the road course in the photo. Funny that you say is sounds like indy cars, since that's not what they were. good job. If you wanna cast doubt on the authenticity of the thing, so be it- the sandbox is clearly big enough for even your head.
Actually, I thought the horse track was the car track. I didn't even notice the road course until CooperGuy said something. I don't know the terrain there, but the video looks like it is higher up than the industrial area? I do know that Portland International Speedway is a road course that doesn't have any sound abatement measures, unless they have added some in the last several years.
I too, was surprised when CooperGuy said IndyCars. I know they used to run there once per year, but those cars didn't sound like IndyCars to me. Maybe some kind of GT car, or TransAm series. Regardless, it's pretty hard to make comparisons when it is a different style of track, different geography, and unknown types & noise volumes of cars. The video is interesting, but I don't see how any judgement about the deign or feasability of Cooper Park can be made from it.
groundrules
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BeerMan wrote >>
The video is interesting, but I don't see how any judgement about the deign or feasability of Cooper Park can be made from it.
Oh, I was the first to admit (in my post) that it's anecdotal evidence. But it's something. I happen to think that it means more than then one-car/one-day test, and I think it means more than the reliance on the assumption that the highway noise will drown out track noise.
Take it for what it's worth, I happen to think it's worth something.
My point is, tracks (all of 'em) make noise. There's just no debating that point. The debate surrounds how much noise, and whether that noise is worth the other benefits. These are real different debates.
Just for the record, I like motor sports. If it's finally built, I hope to hell the have a couple motorcycle events there. I'll go. But I don't pretend that the track won't have a negative impact on some residents.
EDIT: forgot to add that the track is in the river valley, along with most of the industrial stuff. Then bluff, then houses.
PIR has sound stuff on their website, but it's not about abatement, it's about surveying and neighbor relations.
BeerMan
Hilliard, OH
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groundrules wrote >>
BeerMan wrote >>
The video is interesting, but I don't see how any judgement about the deign or feasability of Cooper Park can be made from it.Oh, I was the first to admit (in my post) that it's anecdotal evidence. But it's something. I happen to think that it means more than then one-car/one-day test, and I think it means more than the reliance on the assumption that the highway noise will drown out track noise.
Take it for what it's worth, I happen to think it's worth something.
My point is, tracks (all of 'em) make noise. There's just no debating that point. The debate surrounds how much noise, and whether that noise is worth the other benefits. These are real different debates.
Just for the record, I like motor sports. If it's finally built, I hope to hell the have a couple motorcycle events there. I'll go. But I don't pretend that the track won't have a negative impact on some residents.
EDIT: forgot to add that the track is in the river valley, along with most of the industrial stuff. Then bluff, then houses.
PIR has sound stuff on their website, but it's not about abatement, it's about surveying and neighbor relations.
You n eed to be careful here. If you keep making posts like this, we might end up friends. ;^)
I think you make some valid points here. The developer isn't claiming there will be no noise, just that it isn't nearly what many of the fear mongers believe. I am not on the Arshot payroll. But I have spent many, many hours looking at the details of this plan. And I have also been very impressed with how open all the folks at Arshot have been when I had questions. That is why I am such a zealot for this project.
Tenzo
Chicago Lakeshore
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all of you faceless people
Says the guy with a question mark for an avatar
anyway..
Nascar Revs Up Rough Side to Win Back Fans
The "have at it" doctrine, sanctioned by Nascar last season, implied that the sport would overlook minor incidents of shoving, swearing and even rubbing bumpersâ€â€acts that once might have meant penalties for those involved.
Parker
Franklinton
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BeerMan wrote >>
groundrules wrote >>
BeerMan wrote >>
The video is interesting, but I don't see how any judgement about the deign or feasability of Cooper Park can be made from it.Oh, I was the first to admit (in my post) that it's anecdotal evidence. But it's something. I happen to think that it means more than then one-car/one-day test, and I think it means more than the reliance on the assumption that the highway noise will drown out track noise.
Take it for what it's worth, I happen to think it's worth something.
My point is, tracks (all of 'em) make noise. There's just no debating that point. The debate surrounds how much noise, and whether that noise is worth the other benefits. These are real different debates.
Just for the record, I like motor sports. If it's finally built, I hope to hell the have a couple motorcycle events there. I'll go. But I don't pretend that the track won't have a negative impact on some residents.
EDIT: forgot to add that the track is in the river valley, along with most of the industrial stuff. Then bluff, then houses.
PIR has sound stuff on their website, but it's not about abatement, it's about surveying and neighbor relations.But I have spent many, many hours looking at the details of this plan. .
How many hours does it take to gloss over a pretty picture of the facility? That's the level of detail the developer has provided. Zwerling, ROAR's sound expert, asked for more for sound modeling but they don't exist. Perhaps the picture is actually one of those stereograms like they use to sell at the malls in the 90s... if you stare at it long enough, you see hidden picture.
BeerMan
Hilliard, OH
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Tenzo wrote >>
all of you faceless people
Says the guy with a question mark for an avatar
anyway..
Nascar Revs Up Rough Side to Win Back Fans
The "have at it" doctrine, sanctioned by Nascar last season, implied that the sport would overlook minor incidents of shoving, swearing and even rubbing bumpersâ€â€acts that once might have meant penalties for those involved.
Ouch, I guess I had that coming. Actually, I'm not the most tech savvy guy in the world, so I've never taken the time to learn how to put a picture by my name. I have a picture on my FaceBook page only because a friend put it on there for me.
BeerMan
Hilliard, OH
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Parker wrote >>
BeerMan wrote >>
groundrules wrote >>
BeerMan wrote >>
The video is interesting, but I don't see how any judgement about the deign or feasability of Cooper Park can be made from it.Oh, I was the first to admit (in my post) that it's anecdotal evidence. But it's something. I happen to think that it means more than then one-car/one-day test, and I think it means more than the reliance on the assumption that the highway noise will drown out track noise.
Take it for what it's worth, I happen to think it's worth something.
My point is, tracks (all of 'em) make noise. There's just no debating that point. The debate surrounds how much noise, and whether that noise is worth the other benefits. These are real different debates.
Just for the record, I like motor sports. If it's finally built, I hope to hell the have a couple motorcycle events there. I'll go. But I don't pretend that the track won't have a negative impact on some residents.
EDIT: forgot to add that the track is in the river valley, along with most of the industrial stuff. Then bluff, then houses.
PIR has sound stuff on their website, but it's not about abatement, it's about surveying and neighbor relations.But I have spent many, many hours looking at the details of this plan. .
How many hours does it take to gloss over a pretty picture of the facility? That's the level of detail the developer has provided. Zwerling, ROAR's sound expert, asked for more for sound modeling but they don't exist. Perhaps the picture is actually one of those stereograms like they use to sell at the malls in the 90s... if you stare at it long enough, you see hidden picture.
There are a lot of details that can be looked at. You just have to know where to look. There are a lot of details (that don't involve your issues of noise) that are very important. And they can be researched if you choose to take the time.
10sun
Columbus, OH
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Three questions:
1. At what stage of development will the sound dampening wall be built? I've heard that it will be built prior to any racing.
2. Could you please define a "race"? Is it when cars race around a track or is it when tickets are sold to watch cars race around a track?
3. If there will be only be "a half dozen" "races" a year, how will this new complex provide hundreds of "new" jobs?
BeerMan
Hilliard, OH
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10sun wrote >>
Three questions:
1. At what stage of development will the sound dampening wall be built? I've heard that it will be built prior to any racing.
2. Could you please define a "race"? Is it when cars race around a track or is it when tickets are sold to watch cars race around a track?
3. If there will be only be "a half dozen" "races" a year, how will this new complex provide hundreds of "new" jobs?
1. I don't know at what point the walls will go up, but it will be before any racing takes place on the track. I suppose that is up to the construction planning guys.
2. I assume it is anytime cars race around a track. Not every race is a public event. For example, most SCCA events are private amature events & do not allow spectators for insurance reasons. So no tickets are sold to their events, but it is very definitely competitive racing.
3. The race track isn't the primary focus point of this complex. The Technical Research Building will operate all year & there will be many good paying full-time jobs there. There will also be jobs at the hotel, restaurants, etc.
I imagine the track itself would employ people kind of like the Columbus Convention Center does. There would be a few misc full-time jobs, and a whole lot of part-time jobs for when events are happening. There are many different kinds of events planned for Cooper Park Complex. There may only be a handful of "racing" events, but they hope to fill the place with all kinds of activities as much as possible. Think of it like an outdoor convention center.
Parker
Franklinton
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groundrules wrote >>
BeerMan wrote >>
The video is interesting, but I don't see how any judgement about the deign or feasability of Cooper Park can be made from it.Oh, I was the first to admit (in my post) that it's anecdotal evidence.
No need to apologize for anecdotal evidence - BeerMan's staged engine revving at the Coop was nothing but anecdotal. Did he set up sound equipment a mile away to measure the noise? Nope.
Parker
Franklinton
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BeerMan wrote >>
10sun wrote >>
Three questions:
1. At what stage of development will the sound dampening wall be built? I've heard that it will be built prior to any racing.
2. Could you please define a "race"? Is it when cars race around a track or is it when tickets are sold to watch cars race around a track?
3. If there will be only be "a half dozen" "races" a year, how will this new complex provide hundreds of "new" jobs?1. I don't know at what point the walls will go up, but it will be before any racing takes place on the track. I suppose that is up to the construction planning guys.
2. I assume it is anytime cars race around a track. Not every race is a public event. For example, most SCCA events are private amature events & do not allow spectators for insurance reasons. So no tickets are sold to their events, but it is very definitely competitive racing.
3. The race track isn't the primary focus point of this complex. The Technical Research Building will operate all year & there will be many good paying full-time jobs there. There will also be jobs at the hotel, restaurants, etc.
I imagine the track itself would employ people kind of like the Columbus Convention Center does. There would be a few misc full-time jobs, and a whole lot of part-time jobs for when events are happening. There are many different kinds of events planned for Cooper Park Complex. There may only be a handful of "racing" events, but they hope to fill the place with all kinds of activities as much as possible. Think of it like an outdoor convention center.
Even IF the track is not the primary focus of the project, it's the biggest concern for the neighborhoods to the north and east. The Tech Center will have some good paying jobs staffed by people who come in from out of the area, from the racing community, and who will live out by BeerMan. They too will only hear the noise when they want it. Others who have looked at the project and its minimal details have acknowledged that hundreds of "new" jobs is a very liberal, very optimistic, contingent on so many factors, and an unrealistic estimate.
Other events like concerts, and motorcycle racing, and racing type driving schools, you know, the other loud stuff, will occur. What is not included in the 5 to 6 "big events" are all the other loud events not in the 90ish decibel range but still very loud. These were discussed by the attorney for Greenlawn Cemetery at the Franklinton Area Commission meeting. Unfortunately it is a long list filled with exceptions.
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