garrettbe
Iuka
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http://news.enquirer.com/apps/pbcs.dll/article?AID=/20080424/NEWS01/804240355
Cincinnati City Council voted 6-2 Wednesday for a plan to build streetcar lines linking downtown, Over-the-Rhine and Uptown (the area around the University of Cincinnati), putting council on record as wanting to build the system.
garrettbe
Iuka
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honavery wrote Huh. I didn't even know they were considering one. Looks like they might beat us to the punch. Not that its really a race.
It's interesting to see them go through the same process we have. They started a lot later than us but seem to be on the quick track. They have yet to involve the public--- and that will be rough for the Cincinnati city council.
zp945
Clintonville/Short North
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It looks like the Enquier is very supportive of this, unlike our hometown newspaper. Lots of information, a Q & A section and a video of the proposed route with landmarks.
It seems like streetcars are popping up everywhere and once that happens you have to wonder if it is enough to attract the workers, visitors and development that is promised. Once it is common for cities to have a streetcar system it really does not influence people's decision on where to live quite as much. I am not saying we should scratch the streetcar idea I am saying let's go bigger and better. Actually do something unique to put Columbus on the map and help meet the needs of the region. I know that people are going to say that the streetcar is just the "starter line" but I think we need a plan for the next phase. If we add another 2.8 miles every 4 or 5 years it is left in the hands of too many people who could kill the whole project.
garrettbe
Iuka
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ZPIZZA wrote I am not saying we should scratch the streetcar idea I am saying let's go bigger and better. Actually do something unique to put Columbus on the map and help meet the needs of the region. I know that people are going to say that the streetcar is just the "starter line" but I think we need a plan for the next phase. If we add another 2.8 miles every 4 or 5 years it is left in the hands of too many people who could kill the whole project.
I second all of that.
Coremodels
Really close to Explorer's Club.
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I suffer from a debilitating case of streetcar envy.
Walker
The KLD / Downtown
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Cincy is moving quite fast on this. Their proposal only came about less than a year and a half ago:
http://www.columbusunderground.com/phpBB2/viewtopic.php?t=6760
garrettbe
Iuka
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Cincinnati's city council must have drastically changed since they've gotten the new mayor. "The banks" are being constructed now and the streetcar project is really moving fast. It will be interesting to see the publics input and reaction. Cincinnati is notoriously conservative with public projects but they also keen on making fiscally wise investments.
The route is 100% perfect for streetcar success and there is a much larger downtown population and demand for this kind of thing. I think some of the only constructive complaints so far on the Enquirer's website are along the lines of "... We want light rail!..." I think gas prices and traffic congestion are finally high enough there that they will go for it.
ZHC
101 East Main Street, Downtown
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Pretty nice win for Cincy's mayor, not just a month ago the chatter I heard from Cincy's public opinion was overwhelmingly against their streetcar unlike here. My recollection could be wrong though.
Still celebration on their part is bit premature imho, their funding plan is very incomplete.
35 million from private sources? What do they expect Procter and Gamble or Cinergy or 5/3rd to put up a third of the cost? Federal funds? We can't get them here for ours apparently so what makes Cincy think they can? I don't think their plan is realistic in the current environment.
Cincy enquirer wrote "In effect, we're going to go out as a sales team and try to generate an additional $30 million in order to get up the hill," Dohoney said. "How we're going to be able to do that, I can't tell you.".
yeah that's a challenge alright.
makes you appreciate the fact that Mayor Coleman's plan at least addresses all the necessary funding, whether you agree with his methods of doing so or not.
I think we are still in the lead, their council basically signed off on an idea not a concrete plan from what I can see.
Many cities (dozens) are proposing streetcars like this. It's not an innovative idea-- but if we don't join in Columbus is going to be dust in the future.
Walker
The KLD / Downtown
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ZHC wrote Federal funds? We can't get them here for ours apparently so what makes Cincy think they can?
I don't think we're actually trying to get federal funds for ours. I think the idea is that we can fund the starter line without them and then apply for them to help fund expansions.
jpizzow
580 N. Park St.
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taking everything into consideration, things around here still move too slowly. like i said before, columbus moves at 100 mph, everybody else (competing cities) move at 110 mph. that goes for the developers also. i understand that there are many parts to the problem, but just get it done already. it's time to be bold.
ZHC
101 East Main Street, Downtown
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jpizzow wrote taking everything into consideration, things around here still move too slowly. like i said before, columbus moves at 100 mph, everybody else (competing cities) move at 110 mph. that goes for the developers also. i understand that there are many parts to the problem, but just get it done already. it's time to be bold.
well that's just the thing, are they really ahead of us? I don't think so. At least that's what it seems to me. Cincinnati didn't do nearly as much they claimed to. They approved a plan they don't have the funds for. Since they didn't seem optimistic that they could raise the necessary funds, What good does that do them?
If anything I think it could jeopardize their plan entirely. Especially if that bond has to be put to the vote by the public.
I'm guess I'm saying don't get discouraged by something that didn't necessarily actually happen.
Walker wrote I don't think we're actually trying to get federal funds for ours. I think the idea is that we can fund the starter line without them and then apply for them to help fund expansions.
Walker this dispatch article from 2006 made me think we weren't eligible for federal funding, maybe I misinterpreted what was said but it seemed pretty definitive to me.
http://www.dispatch.com/live/contentbe/dispatch/2006/06/06/20060606-A1-01.html
from the article
Under the federal guidelines, light-rail and streetcar options would have a cost-effective index of $60 to $100 and bus rapid transit would be $35 to $45.The FTA requires an index of $23 or less.
"The bottom line is that, when you cut through all of this, light rail, streetcar or bus rapid transit do not meet the current criteria for federal funding," Lhota said.
Federal funding would cover as much as 50 percent of capital costs.
If that's basis for federal funding I'd be shocked if Cincinnati met that.
ZHC
101 East Main Street, Downtown
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Also Consider this info from the Faqs from the enqurier before getting too down undergrounders...
Q: How many people would ride it?
A: Planners estimate the downtown/OTR line will draw an average of 4,600 daily rides, not counting special events. No ridership studies have been conducted in Uptown yet.
Q: What happens next?
A: First, meetings with private interests to solicit contributions. If that raises enough money, city council could give the final go-ahead for construction. At this point, the earliest a system could open would be 2011 or 2012.
isn't that less expected ridership than what's expected for our proposed line (5,500 right?) ? I really don't think they are going to get federal funding if that's all it will do. It doesn't seem they expect to be done before us anyway if they do get the funding.
The comments page was illuminating about public sentiment down there as well, which I would argue is far more negative than our naysayers here
http://frontier.cincinnati.com/comments/threadview.asp?threadid=177
I guess I'm different than most other posters but I look at this Cincinnati streetcar and see a project that's being done the wrong way and probably won't happen. Columbus may be more moving slower than many would like (Portland to my recollection took forever initially too with their first line ), but I'd rather we take our time and do it right, than be in a rush like Cincinnati and screw it up like they probably will.
What's going on Underground? When did I become Columbus's biggest cheerleader here? :)
Brewmaster
Portland, OR
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ZHC wrote Walker this dispatch article from 2006 made me think we weren't eligible for federal funding, maybe I misinterpreted what was said but it seemed pretty definitive to me.http://www.dispatch.com/live/contentbe/dispatch/2006/06/06/20060606-A1-01.html
from the article
Under the federal guidelines, light-rail and streetcar options would have a cost-effective index of $60 to $100 and bus rapid transit would be $35 to $45.The FTA requires an index of $23 or less.
"The bottom line is that, when you cut through all of this, light rail, streetcar or bus rapid transit do not meet the current criteria for federal funding," Lhota said.
Federal funding would cover as much as 50 percent of capital costs.
If that's basis for federal funding I'd be shocked if Cincinnati met that.
It's even been modified since then to place nearly all of the scoring emphasis on congestion relief, and funding has been cut.
gramarye
In Exile
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I don't know enough about the Cincinnati line, but the mere fact of that might say something in itself: it shows that thus far it's low-profile and hasn't been given time to seep into the public consciousness. Maybe I'm just out of the loop and there is ample information out there for the people who really need to be making the hard decisions (most specifically funding). However, if not, I second ZHC's caution: this isn't three strikes and you're out. This is one strike and the pitcher doesn't even need to give you a second pitch for years.
mellotron
Arena District
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garrettbe wrote The route is 100% perfect for streetcar success and there is a much larger downtown population and demand for this kind of thing.
Are you sure about that? A quick google search says that Columbus' downtown population is 4700 vs. Cincinnati's 3200. Not knitpicking, just addressing the "skyline envy" that I think many Columbusite's have. Downtown Cincy is so bustling that the Five-Star Maisonette felt it more profitable to move out to the burbs... :cry:
That said, I completely agree with the route, too. I've said this before on this site that the one advantage Cincy has over Columbus is that in a neighborhood like Over-the-Rhine, despite its decay, very few buildings were razed for parking lots! Just lots of old beautiful buildings ready for some TLC! (several photos of such in their slideshow). Running a street care thru OTR could really be the spark to rehab the neighborhood!
Walker
The KLD / Downtown
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Business Courier of Cincinnati wrote Streetcar snubbed at capitolFriday, April 25, 2008
by Dan Monk
Republican lawmakers from the Tri-State suburbs are trying to derail Cincinnati's request for state dollars to build a downtown streetcar system.
"It has zero support at present," said Ohio Sen. Bill Seitz, one of six Hamilton County Republicans who recently submitted capital spending requests that exclude the $6.5 million sought by city officials for a downtown streetcar loop.
"The city should be looking at their budget problems rather than thinking of new ways to spend money," said Ohio Rep. Michelle Schneider, R-Madeira, who joined with five other house members in submitting a $19.4 million package of capital grants they support.
mike_jones
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columbus has a lot greater potential for a successful streetcar line than cincinnati imo..columbus is blessed with a large downtown area which is adjacent to thriving and somewhat affluent areas.downtown cincy is permanently boxed in by really bad areas and the river is completely cut off by the freeway.instead of spending 500 million on paul brown stadium..they should have tunneld a major portion of I71 and opened up the downtown to the river
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