Can you be Pro-Life and Pro-Choice at the same time? « Columbus Underground Messageboard

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Can you be Pro-Life and Pro-Choice at the same time?

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Started 2 years ago by greenhouse1014
Latest reply from berdawn

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abortion

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greenhouse1014
Columbus
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I didn't want to derail the Palin thread, so I thought I'd ask this here. Personally, I'm Pro-Life. I got a girl pregnant once (we ended up getting married, which failed) and she had an abortion without giving me a say in the matter. I got to see first hand how the abortion effected her and our marriage. I am NOT pro-abortion, but I AM pro-choice in the fact that, regardless of my personal views, I don't believe its up to either me or the government to tell a woman that she has to keep a baby from an unwanted pregnancy. No matter how I feel about a woman getting an abortion, its never going to be me that has to carry and give birth to the baby so I don't feel that its within my rights as a man to control that situation. I can counsel, advise, whatever about other options and make my pro-life views known, but, ultimately, its up to the woman to decide for herself this very personal and gut-wrenching issue. Its always amazed me that most of the pro-life protesters are men.

To me, Pro-choice does not mean pro-abortion.

Posted 2 years ago #
somertimeoh
Harrison West
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Yes, personally abortion is not an option that fits with my values, but my values are not the moral compass for the world so I am pro-choice. Really, I don't even think it should be something the government has a say in PERIOD so I'd prefer to not even have to take a political stance on the subject.

ETA: Just because of what you said about not having a choice, I do think we're going to see father's rights become a big hot button issue in this decade. That whole Sean Goldman issue opened a big can of worms that I think does deserve some attention. It will be interesting to see how it all plays out.

Posted 2 years ago #
rus

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somertimeoh wrote >>
Really, I don't even think it should be something the government has a say in PERIOD so I'd prefer to not even have to take a political stance on the subject.

While I certainly agree with you that the government should have no say in abortion, it strikes me that limiting government power in that way is a political stance.

Posted 2 years ago #
greenhouse1014
Columbus
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I'm having a hard time seeing how you can have an opinion either way and it NOT be a political stance. Because the issues has infiltrated itself so much into almost everything political, it's hard to avoid. Even our health care bill, in which people didn't want gov't involved in health care had an anti-abortion piece to it, thereby involving gov't more in this area.

Posted 2 years ago #
ChrisSunami
King-Lincoln District
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greenhouse1014 wrote >>
I'm having a hard time seeing how you can have an opinion either way and it NOT be a political stance. Because the issues has infiltrated itself so much into almost everything political, it's hard to avoid. Even our health care bill, in which people didn't want gov't involved in health care had an anti-abortion piece to it, thereby involving gov't more in this area.

I feel you in this --and not just on the question of abortion. Every time I state a moral stance (especially on this forum!), people assume that I'm arguing in favor of legislation of one sort or another. For example, on this issue, I consider myself solidly pro-life, but I also think that a legal ban on abortions would probably be one of the least effective ways to prevent abortions.

For another example, in the consumerism thread my moral opposition to consumerism was widely perceived as meaning I wanted the government to forcibly redistribute wealth. I do think there's something wrong with a climate where the only way people know how to have a moral conversation is in the courts and in the Congress.

Back to the topic at hand --I think one could certainly be morally pro-life and politically pro-choice. I'm probably in that category by default, although I'm not libertarian enough for the ideal of "choice" to exert a strong pull over me either morally or politically.

Posted 2 years ago #
somertimeoh
Harrison West
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rus wrote >>

somertimeoh wrote >>
Really, I don't even think it should be something the government has a say in PERIOD so I'd prefer to not even have to take a political stance on the subject.

While I certainly agree with you that the government should have no say in abortion, it strikes me that limiting government power in that way is a political stance.

Yeah? I'm not sure why you don't understand how I can have a political ideology and not want to have to form a political opinion on a specific subject that I don't feel is one that should be debated outside of a doctor's office, church, or bedroom.

ETA: We might want to work on the reading comprehension. My original statement said "...I'd prefer to not even have to take a political stance on the subject." As in, I wish it wasn't part of our political landscape. I'd also prefer to not work and have a million dollars deposited in to my checking account every year, but that's not reality.

Posted 2 years ago #
greenhouse1014
Columbus
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somertimeoh wrote >>

rus wrote >>

somertimeoh wrote >>
Really, I don't even think it should be something the government has a say in PERIOD so I'd prefer to not even have to take a political stance on the subject.

While I certainly agree with you that the government should have no say in abortion, it strikes me that limiting government power in that way is a political stance.

Yeah? I'm not sure why you don't understand how I can have a political ideology and not want to have to form a political opinion on a specific subject that I don't feel is one that should be debated outside of a doctor's office, church, or bedroom.

That right there, what you just said, is a political opinion.

Posted 2 years ago #
greenhouse1014
Columbus
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somertimeoh wrote >>

rus wrote >>

somertimeoh wrote >>
Really, I don't even think it should be something the government has a say in PERIOD so I'd prefer to not even have to take a political stance on the subject.

While I certainly agree with you that the government should have no say in abortion, it strikes me that limiting government power in that way is a political stance.

Yeah? I'm not sure why you don't understand how I can have a political ideology and not want to have to form a political opinion on a specific subject that I don't feel is one that should be debated outside of a doctor's office, church, or bedroom.
ETA: We might want to work on the reading comprehension. My original statement said "...I'd prefer to not even have to take a political stance on the subject." As in, I wish it wasn't part of our political landscape. I'd also prefer to not work and have a million dollars deposited in to my checking account every year, but that's not reality.

OK, sorry, the coffee hasn't been quite strong enough today.

Posted 2 years ago #
somertimeoh
Harrison West
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No problem.

Posted 2 years ago #
rus

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somertimeoh wrote >>

ETA: We might want to work on the reading comprehension. My original statement said "...I'd prefer to not even have to take a political stance on the subject." As in, I wish it wasn't part of our political landscape. I'd also prefer to not work and have a million dollars deposited in to my checking account every year, but that's not reality.

Ah. I didn't get that you were knowingly wishing for the impossible in your initial post.

Posted 2 years ago #
somertimeoh
Harrison West
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rus wrote >>

somertimeoh wrote >>
ETA: We might want to work on the reading comprehension. My original statement said "...I'd prefer to not even have to take a political stance on the subject." As in, I wish it wasn't part of our political landscape. I'd also prefer to not work and have a million dollars deposited in to my checking account every year, but that's not reality.

Ah. I didn't get that you were knowingly wishing for the impossible in your initial post.

I'm a dreamer :)

Posted 2 years ago #
greenhouse1014
Columbus
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somertimeoh wrote >>

rus wrote >>

somertimeoh wrote >>
ETA: We might want to work on the reading comprehension. My original statement said "...I'd prefer to not even have to take a political stance on the subject." As in, I wish it wasn't part of our political landscape. I'd also prefer to not work and have a million dollars deposited in to my checking account every year, but that's not reality.

Ah. I didn't get that you were knowingly wishing for the impossible in your initial post.

I'm a dreamer :)

but you're not the only one.

sorry, channeling John Lennon today.

Posted 2 years ago #
rus

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greenhouse1014 wrote >>

sorry, channeling John Lennon today.

Might want to stop channeling when it comes to the sucking chest wound. Just say'n.

Posted 2 years ago #
TaraK
probably at the coffee shop
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Of course! Pro-choice means just that -- choice, not mandated abortion.

As for the question of this being political, I don't think it should be, as I view it as a matter of human rights.

Posted 2 years ago #
agtw31
columbus
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being pro-choice is being pro-life.

why is the pro-life/pro-choice movement now a political movement,instead of a social movement?

because the pro-life movement knew they could never get a shot at overturning Roe vs Wade without involving politicians.

the pro-life movement has been legitimized and exploited by the republican party,and planned parenthood by the democrats.

if it wasn't a political issue,the pro-life folks would be still be considerred a religion based sub-culture i.e. Randy Weaver(ruby ridge),David Koresh,Jim Jones,etc.

now they are considerred part of the religious right,and they won't stop blowing up women's clinics,or killing doctors.

ladies and gentlemen,welcome to the United States of Insanity

Posted 2 years ago #
rus

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agtw31 wrote >>
if it wasn't a political issue,the pro-life folks would be still be considerred a religion based sub-culture i.e. Randy Weaver(ruby ridge),David Koresh,Jim Jones,etc.
now they are considerred part of the religious right,and they won't stop blowing up women's clinics,or killing doctors.

First off, while I am pro-abortion ( Read that again. Yes, that's what I mean ) it's unfair to criticize opponents of abortion as extremists. I know anti-abortion types who are also VERY opposed to killing doctors or blowing up clinics.

Kinda like saying every muslim is a terrorist because some of them strap on suicide vests. Simply not true.

Second, Randy Weaver wasn't religiously motivated. Racist? Sure. Set up by the Federal government? Looks that way, considering how much they paid to make the civil suit go away.

Posted 2 years ago #
takeasiesta
Harrison West
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I think abortion should be legal up until a certain point. I don't know exactly when a fetus goes from being a ball of cells into something with a heartbeat but that should mandate a deadline when it can happen. If you have been carrying this baby for 7 months then you should just suck it up and carry it out to full term and put it up for adoption if you don't want to be responsible for the child.

Also if a woman is raped she should have full rights of not having to have that child as a reminder of what she had to go through.

The thing I truly hate about politics is that they see issues as 100% black or 100% white when in reality, things are way more complex than that and usually a complicated shade of gray with no simple answer.

Posted 2 years ago #
agtw31
columbus
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rus wrote >>

agtw31 wrote >>
if it wasn't a political issue,the pro-life folks would be still be considerred a religion based sub-culture i.e. Randy Weaver(ruby ridge),David Koresh,Jim Jones,etc.
now they are considerred part of the religious right,and they won't stop blowing up women's clinics,or killing doctors.

First off, while I am pro-abortion ( Read that again. Yes, that's what I mean ) it's unfair to criticize opponents of abortion as extremists. I know anti-abortion types who are also VERY opposed to killing doctors or blowing up clinics.
Kinda like saying every muslim is a terrorist because some of them strap on suicide vests. Simply not true.
Second, Randy Weaver wasn't religiously motivated. Racist? Sure. Set up by the Federal government? Looks that way, considering how much they paid to make the civil suit go away.

good point about all of them not being homicidal maniacs,,but the families of the people killed by members of their movement didnt get a condolence card from Operation Rescue,either.

as for Randy Weaver,i've read books about him on both sides of the debate.bottom line,what happened to him and his family was horrible.

but,everything he believed in was based on a religious conviction that there was going to be a race war in this country.

i don't know how much more cocoo for cocoa puffs you can get than that.

Posted 2 years ago #
rus

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agtw31 wrote >>
good point about all of them not being homicidal maniacs,,but the families of the people killed by members of their movement didnt get a condolence card from Operation Rescue,either.
as for Randy Weaver,i've read books about him on both sides of the debate.bottom line,what happened to him and his family was horrible.
but,everything he believed in was based on a religious conviction that there was going to be a race war in this country.
i don't know how much more cocoo for cocoa puffs you can get than that.

I'd say the anti-abortion types reaction to clinic bombings and killing doctors ranges from shock and horror ( vast majority ), a tacit acceptance akin to "evil people receive evil" ... not actual support for the act but not condemnation ( small minority ) to cheering ( tiny lunatic fringe ).

I'm not saying Weaver was a paragon of sanity, mind you... but if by 'Religious' you're referring to the Christian Identity movement, note that it's a lot less Christian than a cover for racist views.

Posted 2 years ago #
Schoolboy
Columbus
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somertimeoh wrote >>
Yes, personally abortion is not an option that fits with my values, but my values are not the moral compass for the world so I am pro-choice. Really, I don't even think it should be something the government has a say in PERIOD so I'd prefer to not even have to take a political stance on the subject.
ETA: Just because of what you said about not having a choice, I do think we're going to see father's rights become a big hot button issue in this decade. That whole Sean Goldman issue opened a big can of worms that I think does deserve some attention. It will be interesting to see how it all plays out.

Ditto :)

I find partial birth abortions sickening however. Not sure how that one is legal. If say a friend of the mother were to perform this same act on a baby partially born, there isn't a doubt in my mind that everyone involved would be convicted of murder in any court. Just because a doctor does it, doesn't mean it right.

Posted 2 years ago #