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YouTubeBusiness First wrote Transit authority soliciting streetcar proposalsby Jimmy DeButts
The Birmingham-Jefferson County Transit Authority is seeking proposals for the design and construction of its planned $33 million streetcar system.
Birmingham Mayor Larry Langford has promoted a 2.5 mile streetcar line that will run through downtown. The proposed route would begin at the intermodal facility on Morris Avenue and wind through the city, passing cultural hotspots, such as the Birmingham Museum of Art and the Birmingham-Jefferson Convention Complex.
The city has indicated the streetcar line will begin construction in early November.
Columbus Underground Messageboard » General Columbus Discussion
Birmingham Streetcar News
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Walker
The KLD / Downtown
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Posted 4 years ago # -
Walker
The KLD / Downtown
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I sort of did a double take when I read this. Thought maybe they were talking about the other Birmingham. Sounds like it's going to be up and running next year. My parents live about an hour from Birmingham, and we've definitely stop through next year to check it out.
Posted 4 years ago # -
I was raised 2 hours north of Birmingham, and I have to say I'm not a bit shocked that they are getting a streetcar before Columbus. I am qualified to say with confidence that even small southern cities are more progressive risk takers than cities in the Midwest. No doubt.
Posted 4 years ago # -
ZHC
101 East Main Street, Downtown
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33 million for 2.5 miles? Isn't that about the same length as ours at 1/3rd the cost? Is that a misprint? Sounds pretty cheap for a real deal modern streetcar system like Portland's or Seattle's. This sounds more like an old school electric trolley system.
http://www.al.com wrote The cars themselves may come from Milan, Italy, which has a fleet of vintage cars from the 1920s for sale for $25,000 to $35,000 each. Hill said most fully restored vintage streetcars cost $200,000 to $800,000 each; in this case, the city would have to do some updating, such as adding air conditioning, but the cars are generally service-ready.
The more I study this issue the more it seems to me that the term "streetcar" is virtually useless as a term as it encompasses a wide variety of very different styles of transport.
I will say I like their proposed funding plan much better than ours as it wouldn't put any businesses at a competitive disadvantage to their near region competitors while still having the business community shoulder the costs.
I wouldn't read too much into Birmingham getting a streetcar if this vintage system is all they are getting, that doesn't sound progressive to me.
Posted 4 years ago # -
Coremodels
Really close to Explorer's Club.
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ZHC wrote I wouldn't read too much into Birmingham getting a streetcar if this vintage system is all they are getting, that doesn't sound progressive to me.
I don't know Z, you should probably google "Heritage Trolley" and see how much those vintage systems even have done in other towns already.
Posted 4 years ago # -
Walker
The KLD / Downtown
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While it isn't a modern rail system, it is a start and could very easily lead to that.
Not that SF is a good comparison to Columbus or Birmingham, but their transit network is a mix of historic and modern systems. Personally, I hated riding the historic Streetcar route along the Embarcadero last time we were there because some of the trains were so jerky with their movements, but it is cool that they've salvaged those trains from cities all over the US. Modern systems seem much smoother to me. :D
Posted 4 years ago # -
luchobucho
Philadelphia, PA
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Most of the justification for installing the downtown streetcar in columbus was about economic development, right? Additionally it is supposed to be about showing the benefits of rail transit.
I think Birmingham's use of reconditioned streetcar vehicles is smart. The whole point of this first line is to get rails in the street, to establish a "permanent"*** route and to get a frequently running circulator route running.
ZHC, why is using a vintage electric trolley such a horrible thing? They're visually appealing and often times have new motors added. Running on a modern trackbed, they're not terribly different from the "modern" streetcar systems.
A great example is the Route 15 Trolly in Philadelphia. SEPTA reconditioned 1940s era PCC Streetcars with new motors and A/C and did complete overhauls on the interiors. They're quiet and a great addition to an already pretty well built out transit system.
Posted 4 years ago # -
Columbusite
Minneapolis
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Residents from Kensosha to Birmingham to Toronto all get it. Why is it that we don't? I'm guessing all of the car-lined streets in every urban neighborhood may be the answer.
Posted 4 years ago # -
ZHC
101 East Main Street, Downtown
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Coremodels wrote I don't know Z, you should probably google "Heritage Trolley" and see how much those vintage systems even have done in other towns already.
Sounds like people thought I was a bit harsher than I really intended. Sorry about that. I'm happy for Birmingham, sounds like they got a system that's appropriate for their goals and it's funded realistically.
Anyway I did check out some of the vintage systems Core before posting and actually talked to some of COTA's board and talked to a couple businesses in cities that went the historic route. My general impression , which I admit is empirically incomplete and from a novice who is by no means an expert, is that the historic trolleys typically produced a much smaller ROI than the Portland or Seattle style modernized streetcar version and with considerably less pubic enthusiasm in terms of ridership. The "heritage trolleys" also seemed to have a higher fail rate e.g. Brooklyn's than the modern streetcar. They also don't seem to be typically handicap accessible, an important issue for Columbus since the city already lost a couple big lawsuits in the recent past related to that issue. Granted I haven't done an exhaustive study of this as I don't have a ton of free time, but I try to thoroughly research any issue that can affect my business before rendering an opinion.
So is the vintage streetcar true progress? I guess it can be for smaller cities and some bigger cities, but I don't feel it's fair to say it's nearly as progressive or effective as the engineering plan Coleman had rolled out. So no it's not a "horrible thing" at all, Luchobucho just not really a major step forward or the best one for Columbus imo. I think vintage cars are very viable solution for other cities but not for Columbus. Considering the public's apparent disdain for the "trolley" installing a vintage here I would think would bomb and play into the anti-streetcar's camp hands. The most common comment I get from customers about the streetcar is usually some derogatory comment about "trolleys". I think the mayor and the streetcar committee is smart to pursue a modern system.
What I really meant to get is this, I think the streetcar fans might be making too much a big deal out of what other cities are doing. We don't often see the guts of their process being hashed out like we see our own. It's much easier to see our flaws and delays and stumbles because we are more intimate with what's going on in our city. I don't know about you but I've never read any Birmingham periodicals until this week. I've never gone to Birmingham message boards, I don't watch their TV. I have no clue what their city council is like. I couldn't tell you how popular this actually is down there.
Personally I don't know how smooth a process it was for Birmingham to approve their line. Maybe it was drawn out like ours is so far. Maybe it was easy. They certainly had to come up with a lot less money, that makes it a lot simpler to approve and engenders less hard feelings from those who disapprove. However it's not like there weren't other cities where streetcar proponents had to overcome significant initial resistance. I think it's easy to forget that when you get a setback, like streetcar fans feel like they've gotten here.
But I don't think it's safe to say that Birmingham necessarily "gets it" and we don't when Birmingham isn't installing a truly comparable system in terms of expected development return, style, cost, or efficiency. Or Cincinnati "gets it" when they approve a plan that doesn't have adequate or realistic funding.
I just don't want you streetcar fans to get needlessly discouraged over things you don't really need to that's all. Let's compare Apples to apples not apples to oranges . No rip intended on heritage trolleys or Birmingham or any posters here.
:)
This is why I shouldn't post so late at night, I sound pretty cranky when I operate on 4 hours sleep. :)
Posted 4 years ago # -
Walker
The KLD / Downtown
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ZHC wrote What I really meant to get is this, I think the streetcar fans might be making too much a big deal out of what other cities are doing. We don't often see the guts of their process being hashed out like we see our own. It's much easier to see our flaws and delays and stumbles because we are more intimate with what's going on in our city. I don't know about you but I've never read any Birmingham periodicals until this week. I've never gone to Birmingham message boards, I don't watch their TV. I have no clue what their city council is like. I couldn't tell you how popular this actually is down there.
Which is exactly the reason I wanted to collect some information from blogs and news sources that describe the processes that these systems are going through. This thread is to better educate us here in Columbus on the ups and downs and timelines that other cities are facing with similar projects.
ZHC wrote But I don't think it's safe to say that Birmingham necessarily "gets it" and we don't
I don't either. I think it's a very pointless thing to say. It's an extremist comment that's supposed to get people fired up and jealous (which are the wrong reasons for supporting any type of civic project) but ultimately is unproductive. I keep hoping that one day Columbusite will realize that comments like these do more harm than good.
This isn't about keeping up with the Joneses, it's about keeping an eye on the Joneses in order to better understand what may or may not be right for us.
Posted 4 years ago # -
Columbusite
Minneapolis
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They're not the only city poised to break ground years before us and we're shying away from a $2 million design and engineering study. I'd say the comment matches up rather well with what is happening. At least the governments in those cities are forging ahead or at least giving that impression. We're throwing insane amounts of money at roads/highways/bridges, but anything rail related has to go through the utmost scrutiny.
Posted 4 years ago # -
Walker
The KLD / Downtown
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al.com wrote Langford vows to renew campaign for streetcar funding
Saturday, June 14, 2008
JOSEPH D. BRYANT
Streetcars in downtown Birmingham are a major piece of a plan to build an efficient mass-transit system, not just nostalgic toys, Mayor Larry Langford says.
He says he failed earlier to explain the larger purpose of his streetcar plan and will begin a new campaign touting its benefits. The mayor's renewed focus on streetcars follows the City Council's recent decision to scrap funding for the project in next year's budget.
"I've got to compile all this research and reduce it to a 10-minute DVD," Langford said in an interview. "People can't see your vision if they're not inside your head, so I've got to get what's between my ears in a narrow enough format that it can be explained to the whole city."
Council members said the $6 million for streetcars in Langford's 2009 budget proposal is needed for other priorities, including his plan to rejuvenate Fair Park and Five Points West.
Posted 3 years ago # -
Walker
The KLD / Downtown
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al.com wrote Birmingham Mayor Larry Langford has to explain why spending millions on a trolley system is better than spending that money on new buses
Thursday, June 19, 2008
Birmingham Mayor Larry Langford has a reputation for being quite the salesman. But there's a huge difference between selling something and justifying something.
Early on in his administration, Langford sold the City Council on a downtown streetcar system. The council, though, now sorting line by line through Langford's proposed $428.9 million budget for next year, doesn't think the streetcars are nearly as vital as it did at one time. In other words, council members are trying to determine if trolleys are an affordable option, and whether Langford sold them a bill of goods.
Posted 3 years ago # -
Walker
The KLD / Downtown
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al.com wrote Streetcar bids are in; Birmingham Mayor Larry Langford makes final push to save vision
Tuesday, July 01, 2008
JOSEPH D. BRYANT
A streetcar system for downtown Birmingham would cost between $31 million and $35 million and take 18 months to complete, transit officials said after opening bids for the project Monday.
Officials with the Birmingham Jefferson County Transit Authority unsealed bids to build the system submitted by URS and Gresham Smith and Partners.
Mayor Larry Langford proposed building the trolley line and contributing $6 million annually to the project.
But funding for the streetcars is stalled after most City Council members proposed slashing $5 million of the $6 million Langford proposed in the city budget.
Posted 3 years ago #
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