Walker
The KLD / Downtown / Gay Street
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rus said:
Extremist? For pointing out that there can be down sides for drivers even if in some cases those down sides are worth the overall benefit? For pointing out that most people drive and *gasp* thinking that most people will continue to do so?
Extremist for turning everything you don't like into an US vs THEM argument.
MichaelC
Downtown
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Anyway.
Would love to see this built somewhere Downtown where it would get the most use:
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columbusmike
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Not to change the subject, but will anyone be at the BikeColumbus Twilight ride with the mayor tonight? Should be a great event.
cheap
Westgate
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Cole
Hilltop
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JeepGirl said:
No, it's not better to spend limited funds on an assumption when existing needs are not being met. Would you spend your limited dollars to add a sunroom that you assume guests may use, or instead fix the existing hole in the roof?
I pointed out the weakness of my argument. The weakness of your analogy is that many bike infrastructure projects are a part of larger, resurfacing project. If a fire destroyed one wall of my house, I might as well change where the windows were during the rebuild.
For the multi-use paths, I see a lot of walkers, runners, and bicyclists on the paths. I qualify them, especially the Olentangy Bike Path, as worthwhile expenditures of public funds.
MRipley
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Cole said:
I pointed out the weakness of my argument. The weakness of your analogy is that many bike infrastructure projects are a part of larger, resurfacing project. If a fire destroyed one wall of my house, I might as well change where the windows were during the rebuild.For the multi-use paths, I see a lot of walkers, runners, and bicyclists on the paths. I qualify them, especially the Olentangy Bike Path, as worthwhile expenditures of public funds.
Actually you suggested in your earlier post was that funds be spent now to create infrastructure to address a presumed problem from an assumed possibility. That's quite different than what you're now describing here which is making changes to infrastructure that is being reconstructed anyway. I don't think most people have a problem with it if that's the case. (the bike lanes on Roberts in Hilliard are a good exapmple of that - they were expanding/reconstrucing the road anyway) To let existing, needed infrastructure detoriorate while creating new that only serves a tiny portion of the population won't get much support no matter how you try to justify it.
NerosNeptune
Goodale Park
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MRipley said:
Actually you suggested in your earlier post was that funds be spent now to create infrastructure to address a presumed problem from an assumed possibility. That's quite different than what you're now describing here which is making changes to infrastructure that is being reconstructed anyway. I don't think most people have a problem with it if that's the case. (the bike lanes on Roberts in Hilliard are a good exapmple of that - they were expanding/reconstrucing the road anyway) To let existing, needed infrastructure detoriorate while creating new that only serves a tiny portion of the population won't get much support no matter how you try to justify it.
Well we're all just bickering for nothing then if the argument is simply "tear the roads out and build bike lanes!" vs. "wait until the road gets torn out anyway and then build a bike lane!" because the latter is what's being done.. other than money from the park system being used for new recreational multi-use paths.
So, is everyone ok with bike lanes being added to roads that are being reconstructed, and only anti-bike when it means *new* construction on the road for the sole purpose of bike infrastructure?
johnwirtz
Glenview, IL
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rus said:
Oh, I'm sure it can work for some people. I don't think biking could work for most people unless there's significant changes around here in lifestyle / environment.Working in the burbs and commuting to downtown, say, is simple via car, doable via bus and damned difficult via bike. Thinking of the distance.
Then there's exposure to the elements; I'd suggest that while it's possible some can bike in winter, rain storms, high heat, etc. more people will choose options that keep them comfortable and dry.
It doesn't have to work for most people to have huge benefits. Even if only 2-5% of people bike commuted some of the time, that reduces the need for multi-million parking garages downtown, helps reduce peak hour traffic congestion, and helps reduce peak hour loads on COTA buses.
rus
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NerosNeptune said:
Well we're all just bickering for nothing then if the argument is simply "tear the roads out and build bike lanes!" vs. "wait until the road gets torn out anyway and then build a bike lane!" because the latter is what's being done.. other than money from the park system being used for new recreational multi-use paths.So, is everyone ok with bike lanes being added to roads that are being reconstructed, and only anti-bike when it means *new* construction on the road for the sole purpose of bike infrastructure?
Depends on the road; I don't like the planned bike lanes on King because it seems to eliminate on street parking with a number of apartment buildings on the same street.
Roberts, on the other hand, seems to have turned out well.
rus
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johnwirtz said:
It doesn't have to work for most people to have huge benefits. Even if only 2-5% of people bike commuted some of the time, that reduces the need for multi-million parking garages downtown, helps reduce peak hour traffic congestion, and helps reduce peak hour loads on COTA buses.
The top city in the nation for bicycle commuting is Portland at 5.4%. So let's call that the upper limit.
Is the return on investment ( see your list above ) worth the cost? Sure, any number would be a WAG, but at some point if not enough people bicycle you'd agree that the infrastructure costs wouldn't be worth it, right?
MRipley
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johnwirtz
Glenview, IL
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rus said:
The top city in the nation for bicycle commuting is Portland at 5.4%. So let's call that the upper limit.Is the return on investment ( see your list above ) worth the cost? Sure, any number would be a WAG, but at some point if not enough people bicycle you'd agree that the infrastructure costs wouldn't be worth it, right?
There have been various reports on economic impacts of bicycling and construction jobs produced, etc..., but I agree that it's hard to measure definitively. It's especially hard since we don't have the same kind of data on bike usage that we have for cars.
I would agree though that there is some cost per user threshold that wouldn't make sense. I have no idea what that number is, but bike facilities are inherently very low cost. The most expensive facilities are trails and bridges, which are also the most well used and the safest.
ETA - I had some data on cost per mile of bike facilities from the bike plan in this post: http://xingcolumbus.wordpress.com/2008/05/20/bicentennial-bikeways-master-plan-details/
rus
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johnwirtz said:
It's especially hard since we don't have the same kind of data on bike usage that we have for cars.
Right. Also, estimating things like "parking spaces not created" involves presuming all else is equal, which it almost never is.
Conceptually I like bike trails, though. Sure it diverts funding from roads but keeping bike traffic away from cars seems to work out well for both drivers and cyclists. No door zone, no cyclists blowing through red lights / stop signs, no cyclists creamed by soccer moms on cell phones turning right, etc.
columbusmike
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Let's not forget that bike trails, parks, nice bridges, etc also have an effect in where people chose to live. No one wants to live in a sterile, one-mode, no-amenity place.
GCrites80s
5xNW
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rus said:
Depends on the road; I don't like the planned bike lanes on King because it seems to eliminate on street parking with a number of apartment buildings on the same street.
Those buildings all have their own parking lots. You believe they don't rather than know they do. You made a decision about a project based on beliefs rather than knowledge.
rus
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GCrites80s said:
Those buildings all have their own parking lots. You believe they don't rather than know they do. You made a decision about a project based on beliefs rather than knowledge.
Um. Sure, there's parking lots. There's also cars parked on that street; I drive through there frequently.
rus
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Walker said:
Happy Friday the 13th, Rus. ;)
A'ight, you caught me. Obviously I only like bike trails because they provide cover for me to hide while wearing a goalie mask and carrying a machete to hack up innocent peace loving don't smell bad at all cyclists in an orgy of blood, gore, and general fun.
*sulks off to home depot to browse power tool section*
GCrites80s
5xNW
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