Are the grounds of schools "private property"? « Columbus Underground Messageboard

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Are the grounds of schools "private property"?

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Started 2 years ago by Analogue Kid
Latest reply from gramarye

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Analogue Kid
5th by West-Northwest
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I suppose this is a two part question.

Sometimes when riding my bike I find it much easier to cut through school grounds on my journey (always when things aren't in session so I'm not running over the kids on the playground). I'm inclined to think this is OK since the land is owned by a government entity and I support it through my tax dollars, but I'm not totally sure.

Also more specifically, the former Kingswood Elementary School at the corner of King & Kenny has all these "no trespassing!" signs posted at the perimeter of what was the playground/lawn area behind the building. Although I know this building now houses offices, it's still listed by the auditor as being owned by the Board of Education. Since the 5XNW neighborhood doesn't have much green space, this seems like it could make a great park area but apparently somebody doesn't want us common folk having a picnic on their lawn. If the first example is OK, then I wonder where this would fall.

Posted 2 years ago #
Core_Models
Columbus
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My guess (and it is just that) is that you're not the common folk they're posting those signs for.

Posted 2 years ago #
gramarye
In Exile
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You get in a lot less trouble thinking of schools as private property than public property. They may be publicly owned, but you don't have any more right to be on them when they don't want you there than you have to be in a courthouse or jail.

Also, even designated parks can restrict their hours of operation. "Park closes at dark" signs are reasonably common.

Posted 2 years ago #
Analogue Kid
5th by West-Northwest
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gramarye wrote >>
You get in a lot less trouble thinking of schools as private property than public property. They may be publicly owned, but you don't have any more right to be on them when they don't want you there than you have to be in a courthouse or jail.
Also, even designated parks can restrict their hours of operation. "Park closes at dark" signs are reasonably common.

Well when I was in elementary school, people cut through our playground all the time and I never remember anyone batting an eye over it. At my High School, people would come in and use the running track at their leisure as well.

I don't think its the same as a courthouse or jail. First off, the courthouse is open to the public whenever court is in session because that's the way the justice system works. Sure you can't be there after hours but I don't ride my bike at 3am. Second, other than Kingswood, no school that I've seen has any "no trespassing" signs posted. It's not like I'm riding my bike inside the school building through the hallways or something.

Posted 2 years ago #
HeySquare
German Village
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I can shed some light, although I'm going to be a little vague, because I can't remember exactly. Technically I believe that school grounds are considered to be recreation areas open to the public.

as far as the second question goes... the school system will often retain ownership of the land and buildings and lease them to private interests. They do this because, in order to sell the property the school system is required to offer the property to charter schools and other educations interests first, I think...

Posted 2 years ago #
gramarye
In Exile
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Analogue Kid wrote >>

gramarye wrote >>
You get in a lot less trouble thinking of schools as private property than public property. They may be publicly owned, but you don't have any more right to be on them when they don't want you there than you have to be in a courthouse or jail.
Also, even designated parks can restrict their hours of operation. "Park closes at dark" signs are reasonably common.

Well when I was in elementary school, people cut through our playground all the time and I never remember anyone batting an eye over it. At my High School, people would come in and use the running track at their leisure as well.
I don't think its the same as a courthouse or jail. First off, the courthouse is open to the public whenever court is in session because that's the way the justice system works. Sure you can't be there after hours but I don't ride my bike at 3am. Second, other than Kingswood, no school that I've seen has any "no trespassing" signs posted. It's not like I'm riding my bike inside the school building through the hallways or something.

Very few schools actually do restrict the public's access the way courthouses and (especially) jails do, but they could do so, or at least, nearly as much so. There are a few limits that they can't cross, but most schools come nowhere near them because they generally want to be inviting and friendly to the people they have to ask for money every few years. My high school didn't restrict the use of any of its outdoor athletic facilities unless practice or a game was scheduled (though they also wouldn't generally leave the tennis court lights on ... it was hit and miss, and I never did figure out what the policy was).

Posted 2 years ago #
pez

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Surprisingly, the issue is addressed directly in the Ohio Revised Code. In practicality though, the chances of being prosecuted for only cutting through on your bike are probably low. I'd think the trespassing would more likely be tacked onto another charge.
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2911.21 Criminal trespass.
(A) No person, without privilege to do so, shall do any of the following:
(1) Knowingly enter or remain on the land or premises of another;

(2) Knowingly enter or remain on the land or premises of another, the use of which is lawfully restricted to certain persons, purposes, modes, or hours, when the offender knows the offender is in violation of any such restriction or is reckless in that regard;

(3) Recklessly enter or remain on the land or premises of another, as to which notice against unauthorized access or presence is given by actual communication to the offender, or in a manner prescribed by law, or by posting in a manner reasonably calculated to come to the attention of potential intruders, or by fencing or other enclosure manifestly designed to restrict access;

(4) Being on the land or premises of another, negligently fail or refuse to leave upon being notified by signage posted in a conspicuous place or otherwise being notified to do so by the owner or occupant, or the agent or servant of either.

(B) It is no defense to a charge under this section that the land or premises involved was owned, controlled, or in custody of a public agency.

(C) It is no defense to a charge under this section that the offender was authorized to enter or remain on the land or premises involved, when such authorization was secured by deception.

(D) Whoever violates this section is guilty of criminal trespass, a misdemeanor of the fourth degree.

(E) As used in this section, Ã¢â‚¬Å“land or premisesÃ¢â‚¬Â includes any land, building, structure, or place belonging to, controlled by, or in custody of another, and any separate enclosure or room, or portion thereof.

Posted 2 years ago #
Analogue Kid
5th by West-Northwest
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pez wrote >>

2911.21 Criminal trespass.
(A) No person, without privilege to do so, shall do any of the following:
(1) Knowingly enter or remain on the land or premises of another;
(2) Knowingly enter or remain on the land or premises of another, the use of which is lawfully restricted to certain persons, purposes, modes, or hours, when the offender knows the offender is in violation of any such restriction or is reckless in that regard;
(3) Recklessly enter or remain on the land or premises of another, as to which notice against unauthorized access or presence is given by actual communication to the offender, or in a manner prescribed by law, or by posting in a manner reasonably calculated to come to the attention of potential intruders, or by fencing or other enclosure manifestly designed to restrict access;
(4) Being on the land or premises of another, negligently fail or refuse to leave upon being notified by signage posted in a conspicuous place or otherwise being notified to do so by the owner or occupant, or the agent or servant of either.
(B) It is no defense to a charge under this section that the land or premises involved was owned, controlled, or in custody of a public agency.

Interesting, I think Section A Part 1 is so vague as to be pretty much unenforceable. I could interpret that as I can't go to a Wendy's restaurant since I don't own the property and don't have express permission, although I would have implied permission since its a business. The other parts are more specific as to the need to post signage and/or warn the person committing the act that they are trespassing and need to leave.

As people have said though, given that I'm just passing through on a bike I seriously doubt anybody would get heartburn over it. It would seem though that I could be removed from the Kingswood School property if I lingered, especially considering it's posted to keep out.

Posted 2 years ago #
blammo
in the shadow of the wonder of bread
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InterestingÃ¢â‚¬Â¦many people with dogs "trespass" on school grounds when school is out of session and linger for quite a bit of time. In that kind of situation I take the "please pick up after your dog" signs as the go-ahead to hang out there.

Posted 2 years ago #
Tenzo
Chicago Lakeshore
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Core_Models wrote >>
My guess (and it is just that) is that you're not the common folk they're posting those signs for.

I feel that about most signs.
Including Autorized Personel Only

Posted 2 years ago #
misskitty
Columbus
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My son and I play on West Broad schools Playground all the time after hours. There are always kids there. We have never heard of issues with it or had anyone say anything about it.

Posted 2 years ago #
gramarye
In Exile
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Reading that statute, I stand by my previous point. Most school grounds are open to the public, and their dogs, after hours because they choose to be. (The "pick up after your dog sign" is fairly read to allow for dogs on school grounds, after all.) However, if a school were to choose to put out a sign that said, "No dogs! That includes you, Buggsy!" it would be within their authority to do so.

Posted 2 years ago #