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A Perspective on America and Americans

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Started 10 months ago by tdziemia
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Twixlen
The Weston District
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JonMyers said:
Twix, If I were doing a power point to answer your question, I'd have three bullet points.

1. 9/11

2. Mortgage/ financial crisis

3. W. Bush "leadership"

---

Those two events, and the subsequent "leadership" through them are significant contributors to the national psyche that exists today in my opinion.

The paradigm of the American Dream has been undermined, and the country is in a moment of searching, change.

A lot of people are scared to death of change.

I always find that fear odd because change is inevitable.

I agree with this... and I think the latest financial crisis - nearly entirely brought about by a lack of appropriate/toothy regulation where needed & the uncontrolled greed of the financial sector - added to it greatly. Toss the first black president on top of that, and a different segment of the population is terrified (even if they won't admit it).

I don't think it was wrong to bring Cheney into this - he was the architect of fear. His entire ideology is dependent on having the masses be scared and pliable.

The incarceration rates are so telling - it's not that we send more people to jail than other countries; we keep them there longer, creating a cumulative population of inmates that is staggering. There is a fear that people are non-redemptable, once they go down a particular path. Then there's the whole drug/people of color/Reagan thing... that's a rabbit hole.

The loss of the American Dream is particularly felt in the lower blue-collar workers, I think. I think so many people believe there is nothing more for them in life, and get weighed down with how freakin' hard their lives are, and lose the ability to dig out. They lack the hope that I had (have), that my parents and grandparents had. That's why the lottery is so popular.

Posted 10 months ago #
myliftkk
Columbus, OH
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rus said:
Foremost political pundit, perhaps. "Foremost" might be a stretch, though.

Just a few dissenting voices; I'm sure you can find others if you'd care to look.

http://hotair.com/greenroom/archives/2012/05/07/another-liberal-myth-down-the-drain/

http://www.cato-at-liberty.org/paul-krugman-on-carter-and-reagan-wrong-again/

This might be the best:

http://www.city-journal.org/2012/bc0624gs.html

To be fair, Krugman acknowledges that he has become a “pundit,” an implicit admission that his book is informed by his liberal views as much as by his economic knowledge.

...

The argument is dubious. All economies are built on confidence. An increase of the public debt now, as Krugman urges, would create a crisis of confidence, not a quicker recovery. Robert Lucas, the originator of rational-expectation theory, has shown how and why consumers and entrepreneurs reject Keynesian policies: in essence, the marketplace is wiser than the government. Entrepreneurs and consumers alike understand that an increase in public demand is artificial and short-term. Consequently, public demand leads not to increased consumption or investments but to price hikes. This unintended consequence of Keynesian demand has been repeatedly demonstrated in theory and practice. Milton Friedman and the late Anna Schwartz, in their Monetary History of the United States, showed that excessive money printing, which Krugman strongly recommends, always leads to inflation, not growth.

Krugman does not even mention these fellow economists, Nobel Prize winners all. He acts as if they did not exist, hardly a scientific attitude. Nor is it scientific to ignore that the only time Keynesian theory was truly applied—after the recession caused by the 1974 “oil shock,” when petroleum-producing countries formed the OPEC cartel and sent fuel prices soaring—it produced “stagflation,” a mix of inflation and economic stagnation. Krugman ignores this feel-bad experience, as well as the supply-side policies, based on monetary stability, that sparked the 1980s recovery. He hardly mentions the success of so-called austerity policies (which basically means balancing public accounts) in nations like Germany, which has seen strong economic growth. Krugman’s pithy dismissal: “It will not last.” His attitude calls to mind a quip from Paul Samuelson, a Keynesian himself, who observed that doomsday prophets could predict five crises for every three that actually happen.

ETA: On the nature of economics as a science at all
http://www.city-journal.org/2010/20_3_social-science.html/

All complaints about Krugman center on his attitude. Of course, his attitude is that his critics are fools, which they dislike being called. Krugman's already more than refuted all of the points above, so go read his responses.

As to the top marginal rate, Krugman's always framed it as simply the number that maximizes revenues:

http://krugman.blogs.nytimes.com/2012/07/10/whose-incentives/?

http://krugman.blogs.nytimes.com/2012/04/03/the-simple-analytics-of-soaking-the-rich-wonkish/?

http://krugman.blogs.nytimes.com/2011/11/22/taxing-job-creators/?

Posted 10 months ago #
tdziemia
GV/Schumacher
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Hugh59, I'll post my comments on the Recession, etc thread to try and eep this thread more on American culture on topic.

That said, I also think we have an issue in late 20th and 21st centure America with a culture of non-accountability. As mentioned in the original article referenced here, it starts with teaching our kids that their performance is always great, giving awards just for participation, etc. Well, what a shock when later they/we find we don't stack up! How could that be when we've been given positive reinforcement all along the way? So, the finger pointing starts. Already in school, when it must be the teacher's fault, and grades are argued (I never heard of this when I was growing up). And so on ...

I never heard my mom or dad blame anyone but themselves for their fortunes or misfortunes.

Posted 10 months ago #
TomOver
lovecause.org
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hugh59 said:

The total combined taxable income reported by taxpayers earning over $1 million per year was $446 billion. Based on the 2009 numbers, imposing a tax rate of 100% on all income in excess of $1 million per year that would raise additional revenue of $211 billion. Imposing a tax rate of 100% on all income in excess of $75,000 per year would raise an additional $726 billion. Imposing a tax rate of 100% on all income in excess of $50,000 per year would raise an additional $1.2 trillion. In order to balance the 2011 deficit, we would need to impose a tax rate of 100% on all income in excess of $40,000 per year.

To what extent are you factoring in capital gains ?

Posted 10 months ago #
hugh59
Aboard the ultimate power in Olde Towne East
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TomOver said:

Since the calculation I used is based on "taxable income" this will include capital gains (though after the reduction).

Posted 10 months ago #
rus

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myliftkk said:
All complaints about Krugman center on his attitude. Of course, his attitude is that his critics are fools, which they dislike being called. Krugman's already more than refuted all of the points above, so go read his responses.

No, my complaint with Krugman is he's a pundit.

Posted 10 months ago #
rus

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hugh59 said:
Since the calculation I used is based on "taxable income" this will include capital gains (though after the reduction).

Gotta wonder what the odds are of the public accepting all money they make over $40K belongs to the government.

Posted 10 months ago #
JonMyers
HCMC, Vietnam ✈
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Twixlen said:
I agree with this... and I think the latest financial crisis - nearly entirely brought about by a lack of appropriate/toothy regulation where needed & the uncontrolled greed of the financial sector - added to it greatly. Toss the first black president on top of that, and a different segment of the population is terrified (even if they won't admit it).

I don't think it was wrong to bring Cheney into this - he was the architect of fear. His entire ideology is dependent on having the masses be scared and pliable.

The incarceration rates are so telling - it's not that we send more people to jail than other countries; we keep them there longer, creating a cumulative population of inmates that is staggering. There is a fear that people are non-redemptable, once they go down a particular path. Then there's the whole drug/people of color/Reagan thing... that's a rabbit hole.

The loss of the American Dream is particularly felt in the lower blue-collar workers, I think. I think so many people believe there is nothing more for them in life, and get weighed down with how freakin' hard their lives are, and lose the ability to dig out. They lack the hope that I had (have), that my parents and grandparents had. That's why the lottery is so popular.

I agree it was right to bring up Cheney, and the lasting effect he's had on the national psyche. I also agree that there is something to be said for our incarceration rates.

I have a different point of view on the American Dream. It's an ambiguous thing to begin with, but my perception is that somewhere along the way, the American Dream began to be equated with over-consumption. It has been corrupted by consumerism.

"Own a home, it's the American Dream." "Buy a car, that's the American Dream." "No money down, get it today." - - and on, and on.

I have the token relative who is a surgeon, and the rest of my family is blue collar. My father was a union guy (I'm not a fan of present unions), and the rest of family is straight up blue collar.

I know this is a bit of a carry over of the income inequality thread, and I have a feel for your views from that thread, but I have to say, I don't think it's solely a lack of hope.

There are as many stories of hope, as they're are of dispair. My sis who lives in Atlanta is a stay at home mom with 2 young boys both under 3 years old. She also has my niece who is 12 years old.

She needed money, was bored, and wanted to be financially independent. Last year, in between caring for those boys she started a beauty products business from scratch, didn't know a thing about it. After more hard-work than she every imagined, she even got Urban Outfitters, and now has Hot Topix as a customer.

It was built from scratch, with less than $500 bucks as startup capital, while taking care of two boys, and running a household. It was built on hustle and exhaustion.

The business is tracking to be a high six-figure business this year.

I just finished reading Chris Gillibeau's book - The $100 Startup.

The book isn't about big, venture backed internet startups. It's a book of stories of ordinary people who decided to do their own thing, work for themselves. It's a book that walks you through the steps of getting started yourself. It even features two businesses started in Columbus on a shoe-string budget. Probably people you know.

There are thousands and thousands of these stories in the states. There are just as many failures as well. There are no guarantees.

I know I harp on entrepreneurship because that's my thing, but then again, it's just a vehicle. A way to deliver something I care about and make a living. Blue-collar, white collar, yellow-stained collar, it doesn't matter, if you're not thinking more entrepreneurially you're going to be in trouble.

My point in sharing my sis' story, and the book is that there is another narrative that is unfolding in American as well, those that are doing something.

I could just as easily say the popularity of the lottery reflects a culture of entitlement to fast, easy money for doing next to nothing.

Posted 10 months ago #
geoyui
West Side
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JonMyers said:

My point in sharing my sis' story, and the book is that there is another narrative that is unfolding in American as well, those that are doing something.

I think this is a narrative that is not "unfolding" but "returning". When my parents came to the states in the 70's (from Taiwan), they couldn't find work. My dad had 2 master degrees in chemistry (from US universities) and my mom was a nurse. They were turned away from jobs partially because of their ethnicity, so they had to figure out how can they make a living, what can they create? They started a Chinese buffet restaurant in Akron, and back in the early 70's that was something novel to the general populace of NE Ohio. Through the rise of chain restaurants and competing Chinese businesses on every corner, they've had to adapt and diversify their income streams (opened a Asian grocer and delivery service). Their restaurant stayed open for over 25 years.

I mention this story because I think there was a time between the 70's and today where that entrepeneurial spirit was not apparent, during times where the US was prosperous and successful. Where the employed was satisfied and comfortable in their job. I think now out of necessity, much like my parents when they arrived, new ideas and businesses are being generated.

Posted 10 months ago #
DavidF
Elysium Fields
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geoyui said:
I think this is a narrative that is not "unfolding" but "returning". When my parents came to the states in the 70's (from Taiwan), they couldn't find work. My dad had 2 master degrees in chemistry (from US universities) and my mom was a nurse. They were turned away from jobs partially because of their ethnicity, so they had to figure out how can they make a living, what can they create? They started a Chinese buffet restaurant in Akron, and back in the early 70's that was something novel to the general populace of NE Ohio. Through the rise of chain restaurants and competing Chinese businesses on every corner, they've had to adapt and diversify their income streams (opened a Asian grocer and delivery service). Their restaurant stayed open for over 25 years.

I mention this story because I think there was a time between the 70's and today where that entrepeneurial spirit was not apparent, during times where the US was prosperous and successful. Where the employed was satisfied and comfortable in their job. I think now out of necessity, much like my parents when they arrived, new ideas and businesses are being generated.

I don't think people feel more entitled than they ever have. I don't think people are just now generating new ideas and businesses out of necessity any more than they ever have. This is part of a never ending trope that each new generation of society is less capable than the previous ones. What is different is that resources are now more available to magnify and distort parts of society that have always existed (in other words, the internet, cable news, etc.).

There is a good conversation going on here, but be careful not to allow personal experience become your narratives for society as a whole.

Posted 10 months ago #
tdziemia
GV/Schumacher
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I like DavidF comment on not allowing personal experience to substitute as a narrative for society as a whole. Definitely a common trap, since personal experience is what we feel most acutely, so our natural tendency is to give it more weight than we should.
On the question of American entrepreneurship, I understand the current issue of the Economist has something on this for the cover story, so perhaps they also think it's resurgent? (I haven't read it, just heard an interview).

Weaving together two contradictory threads in the discussion, posters have talked about the risk takers and the fearful ones in America. An interesting concept, not unlike discussions of wealth inequality (risk inequality??). In turbulent times (9/11 and the Great Recession) it's common for people to be fearful and risk averse (the world is a more dangerous place! I'll just hunkerr down). But the risks of entrepreneurship are probably just the right medicine for this moment. As a number of posters have pointed out in response to the original article, this is one of the traits in Americans that's admired by people in other countries. I think it's part of the substance of the Economist article (time to get to the library, I guess). JonMyers is now seeing this spirit in Asia, which indeed should make us tremble as there are one helluva lot more of them than there are of us!

Posted 10 months ago #
geoyui
West Side
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DavidF said:
I don't think people feel more entitled than they ever have. I don't think people are just now generating new ideas and businesses out of necessity any more than they ever have. This is part of a never ending trope that each new generation of society is less capable than the previous ones. What is different is that resources are now more available to magnify and distort parts of society that have always existed (in other words, the internet, cable news, etc.).

There is a good conversation going on here, but be careful not to allow personal experience become your narratives for society as a whole.

I'm not saying that future generations will continually become spoiled and less capable. But I think there was a time when America was prospering quite a bit (during the 90's for instance) to a point where people felt comfortable and thought this was the way life would always be. The eventual economic recession of the early 21st century has brought forth a greater resurgence of entrepreneurs, whether brought forth out of necessity or just opportunity.

And a lot of posts on CU are opinions based on personal experiences, some just choose to share a story :)

Posted 10 months ago #
Twixlen
The Weston District
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geoyui said:
I think this is a narrative that is not "unfolding" but "returning". When my parents came to the states in the 70's (from Taiwan), they couldn't find work. My dad had 2 master degrees in chemistry (from US universities) and my mom was a nurse. They were turned away from jobs partially because of their ethnicity, so they had to figure out how can they make a living, what can they create? They started a Chinese buffet restaurant in Akron, and back in the early 70's that was something novel to the general populace of NE Ohio. Through the rise of chain restaurants and competing Chinese businesses on every corner, they've had to adapt and diversify their income streams (opened a Asian grocer and delivery service). Their restaurant stayed open for over 25 years.

I mention this story because I think there was a time between the 70's and today where that entrepeneurial spirit was not apparent, during times where the US was prosperous and successful. Where the employed was satisfied and comfortable in their job. I think now out of necessity, much like my parents when they arrived, new ideas and businesses are being generated.

I think what you speak of here is much the same story for immigrants now. In fact, I'd say that our immigrant population is responsible for some of the most noticeable entrepreneurial things that are happening. There are whole economies there.

I think what we didn't have in the 1990's is a 24-hour news cycle telling us about the end of our lives as we know them. It's hard to extrapolate the impact constant media bombardment has had on the psyche of the American people.

Posted 10 months ago #
DavidF
Elysium Fields
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Twixlen said:
I think what you speak of here is much the same story for immigrants now. In fact, I'd say that our immigrant population is responsible for some of the most noticeable entrepreneurial things that are happening. There are whole economies there.

I think what we didn't have in the 1990's is a 24-hour news cycle telling us about the end of our lives as we know them. It's hard to extrapolate the impact constant media bombardment has had on the psyche of the American people.

+1.

I do think that technology has made a whole new class of entrepeneurs possible. Also global access via media makes it easier to create a viable set of customers for what would otherwise be only marginally successful business if they were limited to a set geograpic area. This is what is truly new and different from past generations.

Posted 10 months ago #
DavidF
Elysium Fields
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geoyui said:
I'm not saying that future generations will continually become spoiled and less capable. But I think there was a time when America was prospering quite a bit (during the 90's for instance) to a point where people felt comfortable and thought this was the way life would always be. The eventual economic recession of the early 21st century has brought forth a greater resurgence of entrepreneurs, whether brought forth out of necessity or just opportunity.

And a lot of posts on CU are opinions based on personal experiences, some just choose to share a story :)

I'm not trying to discount personal experience at all. Sorry if I came across that way.

As to people getting comfortable and complacent, that is also a constant in history.
(In fact boom and bust cycles go back centuries across most countries)
My personal experience of the 90s was that of tons of people who were creating their own businesses. Some succeeded, some failed, but there was no lack of people taking risks. The resurgence of the Short North was one of the outcomes of entrepeneurs of the 90s.

Posted 10 months ago #
Twixlen
The Weston District
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DavidF said:

I do think that technology has made a whole new class of entrepeneurs possible. Also global access via media makes it easier to create a viable set of customers for what would otherwise be only marginally successful business if they were limited to a set geograpic area. This is what is truly new and different from past generations.

I DEFINITELY agree with this - it's really a barely tapped market. It's still so new. I can't even fathom where we'll be in 10 years, in regards to our personal technology.

Posted 10 months ago #
tdziemia
GV/Schumacher
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Twixlen, there is a great book called The Age of American Unreason that talks about the effects of modern media (24 hr news cycle, etc) and many other factors, on Americans' ability to think rationally. Gist of the book is in a bit of a different place ... about how America has gotten out of step with the rest of the world in matters of education, science, etc. for various reasons. Anyhow, you might enjoy it.

Relative to the thread, in my opinion one of the things we are seeing right now is "American Exceptionalism" meets "GLobal Demographics." I DO believe that America and Americans have an exaggerated sense of their capabilities in the 21st century. We are slipping in areas that matter, like the average educational achievement level, so we have no reason to believe we should be exceptional anymore. At the same time, developing nations with enormous populations are educating their people better (often at our universities!). It's not rocket science to understand where these two trends -- one downward and one upward -- will lead. Also a topic covered in The Age of American Unreason. That quality of K-12 education is largely decided by non-professional educators on local school boards should be a source of national shame, but in many places it is a source of pride. Go figure.

Posted 10 months ago #
geoyui
West Side
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DavidF said:

As to people getting comfortable and complacent, that is also a constant in history.
(In fact boom and bust cycles go back centuries across most countries)
My personal experience of the 90s was that of tons of people who were creating their own businesses. Some succeeded, some failed, but there was no lack of people taking risks. The resurgence of the Short North was one of the outcomes of entrepeneurs of the 90s.

I completely agree, it is cyclical. I believe that during this last decade there have been a higher rate of people with 20+ years of experience with a single company/industry lose their job. They've been forced to reinvent themselves, to become creative and inventive, because in their old careers they are overpriced in the market that has few jobs at their level.

Posted 10 months ago #
Twixlen
The Weston District
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tdziemia said:
Twixlen, there is a great book called The Age of American Unreason...

Thanks for the rec - added to my library queue.

Re: Education... Education equality is a big issue in America. I think in Ohio, charter schools were supposed to resolve some of it - if anything, it seems to have exacerbated the issue.

I think there is also an overall lack of respect for the teaching profession - and that lack of respect is demoralizing to those inside the profession. I think we are asking too much of them, in that they aren't allowed to discipline, but are responsible for keeping kids "in line"; they have to teach to a very rigid curriculum, based on criteria that were likely not created by anyone in the profession; there is very little recognition of the stress the job holds.

Posted 10 months ago #
JonMyers
HCMC, Vietnam ✈
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Geoyui - That's impressive. I lived in Taipei when I was younger and observed an intense work ethic.

What I like about these kind of stories is that your parents presumably did something different outside of their educational background. Maybe even something they loathed doing at first?

I suspect they didn't think of themselves as "entrepreneurs" or any other buzzwords floating around when they were getting started. It sounds like they started this business out of necessity, and survival.

I'm assuming your parents got tired of looking, and waiting on a job, so they had to create their own.

This brings me to another point.

Why isn't blue collar America thinking, and acting more like immigrants?

Using the same resourcefulness as immigrants to start something.

Essentially both immigrants and blue collar America are of a similar social strata, with blue collar America having a home field advantage.

geoyui said:
I think this is a narrative that is not "unfolding" but "returning". When my parents came to the states in the 70's (from Taiwan), they couldn't find work. My dad had 2 master degrees in chemistry (from US universities) and my mom was a nurse. They were turned away from jobs partially because of their ethnicity, so they had to figure out how can they make a living, what can they create? They started a Chinese buffet restaurant in Akron, and back in the early 70's that was something novel to the general populace of NE Ohio. Through the rise of chain restaurants and competing Chinese businesses on every corner, they've had to adapt and diversify their income streams (opened a Asian grocer and delivery service). Their restaurant stayed open for over 25 years.

I mention this story because I think there was a time between the 70's and today where that entrepeneurial spirit was not apparent, during times where the US was prosperous and successful. Where the employed was satisfied and comfortable in their job. I think now out of necessity, much like my parents when they arrived, new ideas and businesses are being generated.

Posted 10 months ago #