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Columbus Underground Messageboard » General Columbus Discussion » Transit
A Dispatch Letter to the Editor about Rt. 315 Construction
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Core_Models
Columbus
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Posted 2 years ago # -
lifeontwowheels
Highland West
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aderwent
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lifeontwowheels wrote >>
If by $25 billion you mean $1.4 billion for 20 miles...
I think part of the reason rail "failed" is disproportionate funding models that elevate one mode over the other. I'm not saying we need absolute equal funding but America in general turns a blind eye towards highway funding while becoming fanatic watchdogs on every penny spent for rail and mass transit.i think i meant to write $2.5 billion. $1.4 billion was the initial estimate. cities had to pay about half of that (after federal dollars, and a proposition passed). and it costs hundreds of millions to up keep every year. cities have to pay all of that.
i agree about the one mode over another. that's why i mentioned oil lobbyists. they're a key player. widen and lengthen highways and roads, and keep rail comparatively primitive, and people continue to drive cars... which need gas and oil.
Posted 2 years ago # -
aderwent
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Core_Models wrote >>
the "slow as a snail train" travels 79 MPH.hmm... the top speed of the line in phoenix is 55mph, and since it has to stop and what not, its average speed is 25mph. wikipedia listed the typical light rail train's top speed is 66mph. also, "A survey of North American light rail projects shows that costs of most LRT systems range from $15 million per mile to over $100 million per mile". until costs are cut, and the economy is back in shape, don't expect columbus to even talk about light rail.
Posted 2 years ago # -
Walker
The KLD / Downtown
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aderwent wrote >>
if rail were added, i'd rather it be of the private persuasion. one, our government needs to be spending money on other stuff (and not highways), such as education. two, we see how well government owned amtrack has worked out.And the private sector is doing so much better with airlines, right?
Posted 2 years ago # -
lifeontwowheels
Highland West
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aderwent wrote >>
Core_Models wrote >>
the "slow as a snail train" travels 79 MPH.hmm... the top speed of the line in phoenix is 55mph, and since it has to stop and what not, its average speed is 25mph. wikipedia listed the typical light rail train's top speed is 66mph. also, "A survey of North American light rail projects shows that costs of most LRT systems range from $15 million per mile to over $100 million per mile". until costs are cut, and the economy is back in shape, don't expect columbus to even talk about light rail.
By that logic should we cease all road projects as well? Project after project tends to show that per mile, rail trumps freeway costs. They are projecting 1.6 billion for the 3C compared to the same amount projected on one section of downtown freeway.
Posted 2 years ago # -
aderwent
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Walker wrote >>
aderwent wrote >>
if rail were added, i'd rather it be of the private persuasion. one, our government needs to be spending money on other stuff (and not highways), such as education. two, we see how well government owned amtrack has worked out.And the private sector is doing so much better with airlines, right?
i can fly out west for much cheaper than riding a train. it gets me there 2 days sooner also. i was looking at riding a train to arizona, but one, there aren't direct routes or a stop in phoenix. two, the round trip airfare was cheaper than the one way rail service. and three, it would have taken 3 days to get there by train.
also, i'd venture to guess if you had a car that got 30mpg and wanted to drive the 1,900 miles to phoenix, that'd be about $160 in gas to get there. plus the cost of food, and hotel for a night, and multiplied by 2 for the trip back, it's going to run about $400. plus the whole 4 days of traveling.
on the contrary, i can get round trip tickets for $250, and get to phoenix in non stop, 4 hours there, 3.5 back, fashion. or i can get a one stop route that takes maybe 6 hours to get there, for under $200 round trip. seems to me the airline industry is doing just fine for consumers. all this, despite oil costs.
Posted 2 years ago # -
aderwent
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lifeontwowheels wrote >>
aderwent wrote >>
Core_Models wrote >>
the "slow as a snail train" travels 79 MPH.hmm... the top speed of the line in phoenix is 55mph, and since it has to stop and what not, its average speed is 25mph. wikipedia listed the typical light rail train's top speed is 66mph. also, "A survey of North American light rail projects shows that costs of most LRT systems range from $15 million per mile to over $100 million per mile". until costs are cut, and the economy is back in shape, don't expect columbus to even talk about light rail.
By that logic should we cease all road projects as well? Project after project tends to show that per mile, rail trumps freeway costs. They are projecting 1.6 billion for the 3C compared to the same amount projected on one section of downtown freeway.
those rail cost estimates are low, because the rail is there already, and just needs upgraded. i assume you're talking about the 70/71 split. that needs a complete overhaul for the most part, and includes many bridges and what not. and yes, until we have a balanced budget, road projects should be ceased, too. unless it's a bridge that fell into the water or one that has a possibility of doing so.
Posted 2 years ago # -
Nate
Suburbs
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howatzer wrote >>
It's as essential as sewer, water, roads and other city-provided services that only the government can build due to the right-of-way issues and the entrenched highway funding system.Isn't this a bit overstated? I think a rail system would benefit the city, but saying it's as essential as water, sewer, and road systems? Seriously? Without those 3 things there wouldn't be a city, and we somehow seem to be functioning without light rail.
No water system = death/disease. No light rail = less transportation options and pissed off forum posts/editorials/etc. That's apples to apples right?
Posted 2 years ago # -
lifeontwowheels
Highland West
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Again, the whole point is balance. Roads will trump trains in some ways. Trains will trump roads. Airlines will trump both. And both will trump air. There is no one right solution but a reasonable balance is there that can provide a wide range of options.
Posted 2 years ago # -
aderwent
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by the way, i'm all for rail. just not ugly light rail. i'd love to see our freight lines used for passenger commuter rail, both regional and local. also, i'm for balancing the budget, not building new infrastructure when we can't grow anyway. wait until the economy comes out of the hole, then build new infrastructure to support growth. and for the record, i'd rather see money spent on fiber optic infrastructure first.
Posted 2 years ago # -
aderwent
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lifeontwowheels wrote >>
Again, the whole point is balance. Roads will trump trains in some ways. Trains will trump roads. Airlines will trump both. And both will trump air. There is no one right solution but a reasonable balance is there that can provide a wide range of options.agreed, except for the costs of construction. roads are expensive, but rail more usually. that's why i say scrap light rail, and upgrade our existing rail infrastructure for passenger use, with a plan to expand later on.
Posted 2 years ago # -
lifeontwowheels
Highland West
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aderwent wrote >>
lifeontwowheels wrote >>
aderwent wrote >>
Core_Models wrote >>
the "slow as a snail train" travels 79 MPH.hmm... the top speed of the line in phoenix is 55mph, and since it has to stop and what not, its average speed is 25mph. wikipedia listed the typical light rail train's top speed is 66mph. also, "A survey of North American light rail projects shows that costs of most LRT systems range from $15 million per mile to over $100 million per mile". until costs are cut, and the economy is back in shape, don't expect columbus to even talk about light rail.
By that logic should we cease all road projects as well? Project after project tends to show that per mile, rail trumps freeway costs. They are projecting 1.6 billion for the 3C compared to the same amount projected on one section of downtown freeway.
those rail cost estimates are low, because the rail is there already, and just needs upgraded. i assume you're talking about the 70/71 split. that needs a complete overhaul for the most part, and includes many bridges and what not. and yes, until we have a balanced budget, road projects should be ceased, too. unless it's a bridge that fell into the water or one that has a possibility of doing so.
LYNX $462.7 million (which was an increase from original estimates) 13.5 miles
LA Metro Figures:
Blue Line, 22 miles $877 Million
Green Line, 20 miles, $718 Million
Red Line (subway) 17.4 miles, $4.5 billion
Gold Line 13.7 miles, $859 million
Orange Line, 14 miles, $330 millionThose are numbers for completed lines.
The time to invest is now so Columbus can be poised for greater investments down the road when things are better.
ETA
I would love to see your numbers on where rail exceeds costs of roadway construction. Even LA's subway system seems to come close or cheaper than what the split is projected to cost per mile. And I should add that most of the current plans utilize existing rail tracks for the majority of the their route.
Posted 2 years ago # -
aderwent
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lifeontwowheels wrote >>
aderwent wrote >>
lifeontwowheels wrote >>
aderwent wrote >>
Core_Models wrote >>
the "slow as a snail train" travels 79 MPH.hmm... the top speed of the line in phoenix is 55mph, and since it has to stop and what not, its average speed is 25mph. wikipedia listed the typical light rail train's top speed is 66mph. also, "A survey of North American light rail projects shows that costs of most LRT systems range from $15 million per mile to over $100 million per mile". until costs are cut, and the economy is back in shape, don't expect columbus to even talk about light rail.
By that logic should we cease all road projects as well? Project after project tends to show that per mile, rail trumps freeway costs. They are projecting 1.6 billion for the 3C compared to the same amount projected on one section of downtown freeway.
those rail cost estimates are low, because the rail is there already, and just needs upgraded. i assume you're talking about the 70/71 split. that needs a complete overhaul for the most part, and includes many bridges and what not. and yes, until we have a balanced budget, road projects should be ceased, too. unless it's a bridge that fell into the water or one that has a possibility of doing so.
LYNX $462.7 million (which was an increase from original estimates) 13.5 miles
LA Metro Figures:
Blue Line, 22 miles $877 Million
Green Line, 20 miles, $718 Million
Red Line (subway) 17.4 miles, $4.5 billion
Gold Line 13.7 miles, $859 million
Orange Line, 14 miles, $330 million
Those are numbers for completed lines.
The time to invest is now so Columbus can be poised for greater investments down the road when things are better.
ETA
I would love to see your numbers on where rail exceeds costs of roadway construction. Even LA's subway system seems to come close or cheaper than what the split is projected to cost per mile. And I should add that most of the current plans utilize existing rail tracks for the majority of the their route.we can't invest money we don't have though.
those numbers would be even cheaper for commuter rail. light rail is too expensive. it cost $160 million to extend a four lane 161, 13 miles. the cheapest l.a. rail figure was $330 million for 14 miles. however, the 3c rail is commuter, not light rail, and what $1.6 billion for approximately 250 miles? not to mention there wouldn't be ugly overhead wires or nearly as many intersections with roads and pedestrian walk ways.
also, most figures for rail forget the upkeep of millions upon millions of dollars every year. the 70/71 split overhaul will last decades without needing anything but maybe pot hole filling and repaving every 5-7 years.
Posted 2 years ago # -
lifeontwowheels
Highland West
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Don't forget to include the $134 million I-270 interchange as part of that, bringing the total to 285. Don't forget to look at the ongoing cost of maintenance and repair as well as future expansions. We have a engineering model that becomes very obsolete very quickly. Within several decades the roads are over capacity and need another round of fixes.
ETA
Not just potholes. Consider the money spent on salting and plowing. Traffic enforcement by state and local law enforcement. Impact to businesses when that freeway is put under construction. And where do you go when it needs it's next round of expansion?
Posted 2 years ago # -
Walker
The KLD / Downtown
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aderwent wrote >>
i can fly out west for much cheaper than riding a train.My point was more that airlines are so heavily subsidized by the federal government that if you pulled all public money out of them, we'd either see them go under or jack their prices way up to the point of where air travel would only be a luxury for the very wealthy.
There are hidden costs attached to every form of transportation. My beef is that people want to lay all of those costs on the table when it comes to rail transit, but want to brush aside all of those costs when it comes to other forms.
Posted 2 years ago # -
aderwent
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lifeontwowheels wrote >>
Don't forget to include the $134 million I-270 interchange as part of that, bringing the total to 285. Don't forget to look at the ongoing cost of maintenance and repair as well as future expansions. We have a engineering model that becomes very obsolete very quickly. Within several decades the roads are over capacity and need another round of fixes.
ETA
Not just potholes. Consider the money spent on salting and plowing. Traffic enforcement by state and local law enforcement. Impact to businesses when that freeway is put under construction. And where do you go when it needs it's next round of expansion?the $160 million figure was from new albany to granville, and that doesn't include the 270 interchange. upkeep of road way is less expensive than upkeep of rail.
and mind you, i'm talking from the cost for the government perspective. i don't like sprawl, and driving an hour to work any more than the next guy (i don't even own a car, and ride my bike or walk to work, the store, etc), but that doesn't really matter in the grand scheme of things. it's up to the people to decide which option is best, and they choose roads, which happen to be less expensive for the government as well. if commuter rail were built and people started using it, that would be less expensive than roads. light rail, however, will never be less expensive for the government.
Posted 2 years ago # -
lifeontwowheels
Highland West
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upkeep of road way is less expensive than upkeep of rail.
if commuter rail were built and people started using it, that would be less expensive than roads.
Which is it?
And have people really chosen roads? Is it choice in the absence of other viable options? If you have a choice between a donut and nothing, you choose the donut, right?
Looking at our numbers in Columbus, seems people are choosing transit at higher frequencies than previous years.
Posted 2 years ago # -
aderwent
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Walker wrote >>
aderwent wrote >>
i can fly out west for much cheaper than riding a train.My point was more that airlines are so heavily subsidized by the federal government that if you pulled all public money out of them, we'd either see them go under or jack their prices way up to the point of where air travel would only be a luxury for the very wealthy.
There are hidden costs attached to every form of transportation. My beef is that people want to lay all of those costs on the table when it comes to rail transit, but want to brush aside all of those costs when it comes to other forms.yep, which is why government needs to get out of everything. if there were no subsidies, the airline industry wouldn't be overinflated right now. which in turn would give rail a chance to grow, but oh wait, the government has a monopoly on it. we need the government to take down big bad monopolies, but when the government itself is the monopoly, people turn a blind eye.
"pulling all public money out" is crazy to say anyway. if we pulled all public money out of roads, there'd be none. rail, there'd be none. until a private company came in to do the work (which would be more efficient and cheaper). not to mention we'd be paying for what we use, completely opposite of taxes (which seem to get lost in the arguments for public transportation).
down with subsidies. down with taxes. down with monopolies (including government ones).
Posted 2 years ago #
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