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3C Passenger Rail Project - News & Updates

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Started 2 years ago by jawjack187
Latest reply from johnwirtz

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surber17

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Walker wrote >>

jawjack187 wrote >>
If given your choice, which would you rather have, 3C or a rail line in Columbus?

Daydreaming is fine and dandy, but we're not being given that choice, so that question really has no relevance to the discussion at hand.
We ARE being given the choice of spending $400M on a starter passenger rail network that we can later upgrade to higher speeds, OR giving the money back to the feds so that they can reallocate it to another another state/region and ending up with nothing in Ohio.

+1 .... this is federal money that is going to go somewhere. If we turn this down, its not like they're going to give us 400 million dollars for some other project we want to build.

Posted 2 years ago #
Columbusite
Minneapolis
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High-speed rail in any state in this country is a bad idea. Do we really need to be spending as much money as we can but don't have in our current economic condition? Worry about getting a comprehensive national rail system up and running for a low price without seriously racking up our ridiculous debt.

Posted 2 years ago #
jawjack187
Columbus
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Walker wrote >>

jawjack187 wrote >>
If given your choice, which would you rather have, 3C or a rail line in Columbus?

Daydreaming is fine and dandy, but we're not being given that choice, so that question really has no relevance to the discussion at hand.
We ARE being given the choice of spending $400M on a starter passenger rail network that we can later upgrade to higher speeds, OR giving the money back to the feds so that they can reallocate it to another another state/region and ending up with nothing in Ohio.

I just think it counterproductive to spend dollars on a network as you talk about the possibility of a future upgrade. Upgrade in the first place. The relevance comment was not needed. You could have answered or just kept that one in. The $400 million does not complete the 3C, so other funds will have to be identified. Meaning, there may have to be cuts somewhere else in order to complete it. That's good if we could speculate that in the future, the rail system we are looking to build, now (without the "upgrade") would be able to sustain itself with fees from riders, sponsorships through ads, etc. I am certain that many of our business leaders would want to jump at the chance to advertise, but it is all numbers game, and the speed of the train will determine how many riders you get on a consistent basis. One or two hundred families traveling to and fro for Browns or Reds games every now and then is not going to get it. You want a sustained money-maker, make it high speed.

Posted 2 years ago #
rus

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As to a "sustained money maker"... how much money does the state make from highways? I was thinking those were paid for by gasoline taxes. Not a profit center but closer to break even.

In this case I doubt passenger ticket sales will come close to break even, so we'll need to increase taxes or cut other spending to pay for operating costs.

If that's offset by increased tax revenue from development spurned by the rail line, awesome... but I don't think that's a sure thing.

One argument I haven't heard much on is the 3c rail project also benefiting freight rail, since it's the same lines.

Posted 2 years ago #
tree_sketcher
Columbus
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Of course everyone forgets the property and income tax generating economic development that will happen adjacent to the stations.

Posted 2 years ago #
Walker
The KLD / Downtown
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jawjack187 wrote >>
I just think it counterproductive to spend dollars on a network as you talk about the possibility of a future upgrade.

All large projects are built in phases. This is not a new concept.

jawjack187 wrote >>
The relevance comment was not needed.

Of course it was. You're posing questions and interjecting information that has no relevance to this topic. I don't know if you're just trying to distract people from the topic at hand, or what.

jawjack187 wrote >>
You want a sustained money-maker, make it high speed.

No existing high speed rail network in the world is a "money-maker" in terms of fares or direct funding. Period.

Highways don't make money either. So I'm really not sure what sort of point you're trying to prove with that.

Posted 2 years ago #
lifeontwowheels
Highland West
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jawjack187 wrote >>

Walker wrote >>

jawjack187 wrote >>
If given your choice, which would you rather have, 3C or a rail line in Columbus?

Daydreaming is fine and dandy, but we're not being given that choice, so that question really has no relevance to the discussion at hand.
We ARE being given the choice of spending $400M on a starter passenger rail network that we can later upgrade to higher speeds, OR giving the money back to the feds so that they can reallocate it to another another state/region and ending up with nothing in Ohio.

I just think it counterproductive to spend dollars on a network as you talk about the possibility of a future upgrade. Upgrade in the first place. The relevance comment was not needed. You could have answered or just kept that one in. The $400 million does not complete the 3C, so other funds will have to be identified. Meaning, there may have to be cuts somewhere else in order to complete it. That's good if we could speculate that in the future, the rail system we are looking to build, now (without the "upgrade") would be able to sustain itself with fees from riders, sponsorships through ads, etc. I am certain that many of our business leaders would want to jump at the chance to advertise, but it is all numbers game, and the speed of the train will determine how many riders you get on a consistent basis. One or two hundred families traveling to and fro for Browns or Reds games every now and then is not going to get it. You want a sustained money-maker, make it high speed.

Isn't this largely how we maintain our freeway network? Piecemeal improvements and upgrades while spending billions on the year to year maintenance. We're looking at 1 billion for 70/71 split and last I saw they were already looking at the next round of upgrades in 20 years.

Posted 2 years ago #
cbuster
Old North Columbus
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making it highspeed right away is a nice thought, but it has no grounding in reality - how exactly would this be accomplished?

No state has ever gone from 0 to high speed. from All Aboard Ohio;

Ohio is 0-4 (1977, 1982, 1985, 1992) in trying to go from 0 to
more than 110 mph. No state or nation has either. High-Speed
Rail is a major investment that requires evolving a supportive
culture, politics, center-city density and a network of connecting
and parallel regional rail and local transit services. It takes
decades for these support systems to evolve, just as it did prior
to the Interstate Highway System or EuropeÃ¢â‚¬â„¢s HSR. California
invested $2.2 billion over 30 years to develop rail to where it
could pass a HSR bond issue after prior failures. Illinois, Michigan,
Pennsylvania and the Pacific Northwest may be only a few years
behind. Ohio is not ready to make the leap to high-speed.

Ten states began all-new state-supported train services since the
mid-1980s and all began with average train speeds ranging from
30-53 mph. Low fares (8-14 cents per mile), not speed, are the
biggest draw for most rail travelers, per a California Capitol
Corridor Joint Powers Board study. Ohio is not unique!

Other statesÃ¢â‚¬â„¢ train speeds, departures and ridership increased
with investment. OhioÃ¢â‚¬â„¢s will too. This year, ODOT will start
environmental planning over 18-24 months so it can tap more
federal funds for 90+ mph trains on five Ohio routes: Cleveland
Ã¢â‚¬â€œ Columbus; Columbus Ã¢â‚¬â€œ Cincinnati; Toledo Ã¢â‚¬â€œ Columbus; Toledo
Ã¢â‚¬â€œ Cleveland; Cleveland Ã¢â‚¬â€œ Pittsburgh. These investments will build
on the 3C Ã¢â‚¬Å“Quick StartÃ¢â‚¬Â!

Posted 2 years ago #
rus

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tree_sketcher wrote >>
Of course everyone forgets the property and income tax generating economic development that will happen adjacent to the stations.

Certainly not; I mentioned that myself and I believe it's come up in other rail discussions.

On the other hand, do you know of studies which show that economic development will offset the cost of subsidizing the operations?

Just asking; I've not seen numbers one way or the other.

Posted 2 years ago #
agtw31
columbus
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here's what Strickland needs to do with the $600 million

have a $600 million dollar powerball for Ohio Pa and Indiana

every idiot in these states would be buying tickets to win the money

the state gets almost all of the $600 million back anyway,after they tax the hell out of the winner.

win win

Posted 2 years ago #
Walker
The KLD / Downtown
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agtw31 wrote >>
here's what Strickland needs to do with the $600 million

Take it somewhere else. We're having a serious discussion over here.

Posted 2 years ago #
tree_sketcher
Columbus
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I dont know of any specifically for this plan, but plenty of studies have been done in the past. See the ohio hub website.

In general, similar rail projects have done pretty amazing things for downtowns in other states. http://www.growsmartmaine.org/blog/?p=159

Of course, many of Ohio's downtowns developed because of rail stops in the first place.

Posted 2 years ago #
johnwirtz
Evanston, IL
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jawjack187 wrote >>
If given your choice, which would you rather have, 3C or a rail line in Columbus?

You're making up choices that do not exist.

Posted 2 years ago #
johnwirtz
Evanston, IL
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Walker wrote >>
No existing high speed rail network in the world is a "money-maker" in terms of fares or direct funding. Period.

I think Paris to Lyon and a line from Tokyo to somewhere make money. That's about it.

Posted 2 years ago #
Walker
The KLD / Downtown
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johnwirtz wrote >>
I think Paris to Lyon and a line from Tokyo to somewhere make money. That's about it.

I imagine those lines started off on day one as profitable high-speed rail lines as well. ;)

Posted 2 years ago #
johnwirtz
Evanston, IL
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Yeah, probably 8-|

Posted 2 years ago #
jawjack187
Columbus
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Agree to disagree with many of you. I do not claim to be an expert, but obviously many of you are. I was giving my opinion based on my choice as a potential customer. In no way was I implying that highways make money, so not sure where that one came from, but I do believe more people would ride a high speed line versus a high drag line. Cbuster's comments make sense. Good luck getting there by starting slow. I would hate for the entire project to be scrapped due to a change in the Statehouse, but that could occur. One of the issues that was addressed as to why support was not wider was the speed. I am not the only one, but I understand the determination of those CU folks who have a rail by any means necessary attitude. I hope you folks are ready to organize and fight for it, because we may have to.

Posted 2 years ago #
alove
Downtown
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LISTEN. IT'S TIME FOR OUR CAR CULTURE TO BACK OFF. It's so frustrating going out everyday and seeing people in their luxurious SUVs. C'mon people, it's the flippin 21st century. I don't care how much you hate China, THEY ARE AHEAD OF US WHEN IT COMES TO INFRASTRUCTURE AND GENERAL TRANSPORTATION.

Right now, Ohio is too uneducated about their own failing infrastructure to really jump onto a HSR project. California remains to be one of the only progressive states in the nation when it comes to HSR. That's because they've been pushing for it forever now. I foresee other states slowly coming around to HSR as well, but it's going to take longer than any other country because it takes goddamn forever to get things going here.

Posted 2 years ago #
rus

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alove wrote >>
LISTEN. IT'S TIME FOR OUR CAR CULTURE TO BACK OFF.

Well. Now that you've used all caps I'm sure all naysayers are convinced.

Posted 2 years ago #
alove
Downtown
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rus wrote >>

alove wrote >>
LISTEN. IT'S TIME FOR OUR CAR CULTURE TO BACK OFF.

Well. Now that you've used all caps I'm sure all naysayers are convinced.

You never know

Posted 2 years ago #