Columbus Underground Messageboard » Topic: NBA in Columbus ?

Columbus Underground Messageboard » Topic: NBA in Columbus ? http://www.columbusunderground.com/forums/topic/nba-in-columbus ColumbusUnderground.com Messageboard en-US Wed, 22 May 2013 20:49:29 +0000 http://bbpress.org/?v=1.0.2 <![CDATA[Search]]> q http://www.columbusunderground.com/forums/search.php Coremodels on "NBA in Columbus ?" http://www.columbusunderground.com/forums/topic/nba-in-columbus/page/20#post-484583 Fri, 25 Jan 2013 19:23:34 +0000 Coremodels 484583@http://www.columbusunderground.com/forums/ I think at this point, we simply got an NHL team instead. Sadly, we got the perpetually worst team in hockey and the attendance numbers are starting to reflect it (finally). Anyone looking at Columbus for another pro sports team will look at those numbers, and they're not going to say "yeah...they suck...but the Bluejackets are bad"...they're just going to say "no one is paying to see the NHL in Columbus". GCrites80s on "NBA in Columbus ?" http://www.columbusunderground.com/forums/topic/nba-in-columbus/page/20#post-484582 Fri, 25 Jan 2013 19:07:31 +0000 GCrites80s 484582@http://www.columbusunderground.com/forums/ "Tome" is the word I was looking for. jbcmh81 on "NBA in Columbus ?" http://www.columbusunderground.com/forums/topic/nba-in-columbus/page/20#post-484577 Fri, 25 Jan 2013 17:40:20 +0000 jbcmh81 484577@http://www.columbusunderground.com/forums/ Inner, if you want to continue this conversation, great, but I think, as far as this thread goes, we are now just rehashing everything that's already been said and pulled this way off topic to boot. You can message me if you want to further this. InnerCore on "NBA in Columbus ?" http://www.columbusunderground.com/forums/topic/nba-in-columbus/page/20#post-484571 Fri, 25 Jan 2013 17:07:29 +0000 InnerCore 484571@http://www.columbusunderground.com/forums/ <blockquote><cite>jbcmh81 <a href="http://www.columbusunderground.com/forums/topic/nba-in-columbus/page/19#post-484522">said</a>:</cite> Not at all, I just don't understand living somewhere you clearly don't much care for. Also, if you're serious about improving a place, I'm not sure the best way to do that is to claim everywhere else is better. Why not get out there and work with the people who are improving it instead of just complaining? You might end up with a better appreciation for just how far the city has come and for all the people working to make it better already. I feel like most of your posts are a direct insult on those efforts. </blockquote> See that the thing, you're the one that seems to be hung up on if Columbus is better than X, Y, or Z city. I'm not going around talking about how I don't like the people in this city or that city. I'm talking about mainly development policies and demographics. Saying that Cincinnati is going to benefit from a streetcar is not saying Cincinnati is better. Saying that more young professionals are moving to Denver does not mean that Denver is better. Better is extremely subjective. What I'm saying is that other cities are implementing the things now that will put them in a better position to compete and waiting decades to do the same is a mistake. Waiting 10+ years to implement rail will mean a lot of missed opportunities. Is that complaining I guess. But this is the internet. There are people here complaining in EVERY SINGLE thread. There are people here constantly complaining about rail and transit, there are people here constantly complaining about outdated zoning, there are people here complaining about sprawl. All I'm doing is bringing those arguments together to show how I feel this will negatively affect Columbus if not addressed soon. I think part of the disconnect is that you think I'm saying Columbus is doing bad. During the last 60 years when most of America was sprawling this put places like Cincinnati and Cleveland at an advantage. Columbus was good at annexing land, building freeways and was at the intersection of 70 and 71. Cincinnati has Kentucky to the south and Cleveland has Lake Erie to the north. Columbus has the advantage of being able to expand out in all directions. In Columbus you could go out to Hillard, get cheap land and build affordable housing and still have a quick drive if you wanted to live downtown. Now fast forward to today and people don't want to live in Hillard and drive to downtown. They want to live in thriving mixed use neighborhoods with access to quality transportation where they can walk to work as well as dining events. So now that the national trends are moving back to urban areas the things that worked in Columbus' favor are now working against it. It's not like people are demanding rail because they're stuck in traffic. It's actually the opposite here. You've got plenty of people on here mocking rail and how only 3% of the people ride the bus. And that's fine for them. But then when the Columbus chamber of commerce polls young people they say the lack of transit is the number one problem. You can't expect the entire younger generation to wait another decade or so until the traffic gets bad to act. Meanwhile a city like Cincinnati already has a lot of this urban infrastructure in place because they once had it. It's easier to go back into the forget urban areas and revitalize them. In Columbus most of these areas were bulldozed for parking lots. So to me looking back 50 to 60 years to see whats going to happen in the next 20 years isn't a good ideal. Instead I've been focusing on what's been happening in the last 5 to 10 years. And as far as insults I don't see how disagreeing with the direction of the cities transportation or development is insulting, I'm not the one referring to people as hicks. As far as sprawl in Charlotte, here is another one of those things were you are criticizing just to criticize. Charlotte is more projects that are more dense in their urban areas than we are. And that's not to say Charlotte is better. But I'm a proponent of urban development. I think it would be better if we could be building more dense projects like them. <blockquote><cite>jbcmh81 <a href="http://www.columbusunderground.com/forums/topic/nba-in-columbus/page/19#post-484522">said</a>:</cite> Columbus is better on some things than in those cities, not everything. You think that I'm just trying to be a homer and deflect all criticism, but that's not the case. Being a stats guy and appreciating trends and having studied them for years now, I am just comfortable saying that Columbus is doing very well and looks to continue to move in that direction. I just don't think the type of negativity you bring to the table matches the reality on the ground.</blockquote> Again you are talking every thing inherently negative. Let's look at Cincinnati, up to the 1950 it was growing at a rate of about 10% a decade. I'm sure in 1945 there was a guy like you that was looking at the last 4 decades saying things couldn't be better. Then the Federal Highway Act got implemented and all of a sudden it was another ball game. Being on the river was no longer as important. Now that's not to say Columbus is going to start losing population. As I've said I think it will continue to grow steadily. But to fall in complacency I think would be a mistake. <blockquote><cite>jbcmh81 <a href="http://www.columbusunderground.com/forums/topic/nba-in-columbus/page/19#post-484522">said</a>:</cite> You definitely care what other cities are doing, and so far, have yet to find one that isn't doing far better than Columbus is. How do you feel about Detroit in comparison?</blockquote> I care what's going on in other cities in the sense that cities are essentially in competition. Since other cities are moving forward you can't just sit still. If you standing still then essentially you're going backwards. As far as Detroit I think Columbus is doing much better right now. They've got some serious issues, but a lot of potential. I would invest in Detroit because I don't have that much appetite for risk. I think there are a lot of cities that Columbus is doing better than. But that is the difference between me and you. I don't go to work and think about who I'm doing better than, I go to work and think about who is doing better than me. You say complaining that were not doing as good as Charlotte or Austin isn't helpful, I say gloating that were doing better than Colorado springs isn't helpful. If my goal was to understand the Charlotte market I would be studying what Denver, Minneapolis, Austin, Portland, etc. were doing. I wouldn't be gloating about growing twice as fast as Columbus. <blockquote><cite>jbcmh81 <a href="http://www.columbusunderground.com/forums/topic/nba-in-columbus/page/19#post-484522">said</a>:</cite> Columbus has over 10,000 residential units under construction or planned in the urban core. Whether you think that's good enough, I don't know. Probably not. </blockquote> That would be good enough if it were true but its not. You doing things like including development plans which are really nothing more than was some politician would like to see one day. If you want to talk about the actual development pipeline as in what a developer/investor would take into consideration when building there are about 6000 units in the pipeline. And that is not the urban core. Here is a report prepared by professionals for the Columbus Metro Area: <a href="http://www.marcusmillichap.com/research/reports/Apartment/Columbus_4Q12Apt.pdf" rel="nofollow">http://www.marcusmillichap.com/research/reports/Apartment/Columbus_4Q12Apt.pdf</a> <blockquote>The planning pipeline is overflowing with nearly 6,000 units. If all of the apartments are completed, supply will increase 4.1 percent.</blockquote> This includes project in the planning stages. Meaning I submit drawings to see if they will approve my projects. Many of these units won't be approve, will be denied financing, or developers won't be able to raise the equity and will never so the light of day. <blockquote><cite>jbcmh81 <a href="http://www.columbusunderground.com/forums/topic/nba-in-columbus/page/19#post-484522">said</a>:</cite> I agree it would be a good thing, and would love to see rail. I also think it's going to happen sooner thna you think. However, Columbus has done just fine growth-wise and economically without it, so I just don't see how it's going to fall apart or hit a wall because it lacks a train. Regardless, the city will get one. It's not a matter of if.</blockquote> Of course Columbus has done fine without rail, all of America spent the last 50 years growing through sprawl. Who cares if you didn't have rail when all the growth was out to the suburbs with relative low congestion on the freeway. But now were building urban developments and nothing is connecting them, except for the bus. That's not going to cut it in the next decade. I guarantee you if we had rail we would have double the development going in urban Columbus. Then add in there is pretty much no real retail and entertainment options connecting them. And again, I've pointed out the CEO of COTA has said rail is a decade off. Why do you think rail will be here sooner other than wishful thinking? <blockquote><cite>jbcmh81 <a href="http://www.columbusunderground.com/forums/topic/nba-in-columbus/page/19#post-484522">said</a>:</cite> And that's your main problem. I just don't think it's all that objective to suggest that Columbus is not doing well or is way behind because it lacks a single development. If rail is really the only thing you find important, then basically nothing else we've discussed so far matters one bit.</blockquote> It's not just rail, it's also more mixed use development. The stuff were seeing for High Point and the LC building across the street is moving in the right direction, but Arena District, even Grandview Yards is not up the standards as to what the rest of the country is doing. Take The Banks in Cincinnati. You talking about office, residential, retail and entertainment all combined into one. SN right now is really the only area like that, and everyone can't live right on High st. <blockquote><cite>jbcmh81 <a href="http://www.columbusunderground.com/forums/topic/nba-in-columbus/page/19#post-484522">said</a>:</cite> Forgive me, but I'm sure that all the people in the 1950s and 1960s studied it as well. Their response was to gut cities at every turn. You have your view, and that's fine, but it doesn't make Columbus' progress up to this point, which has been substantial, moot just becuase there's not a train.</blockquote> And cities like Columbus understood and gut their cities while racing out to the suburbs because that's what that generation wanted. Now we need to see which cities will adapt fastest to the newer generation that wants to move back to the city. joshlapp on "NBA in Columbus ?" http://www.columbusunderground.com/forums/topic/nba-in-columbus/page/20#post-484564 Fri, 25 Jan 2013 16:29:13 +0000 joshlapp 484564@http://www.columbusunderground.com/forums/ Maybe we need a Columbus population/demographic changes thread. jbcmh81 on "NBA in Columbus ?" http://www.columbusunderground.com/forums/topic/nba-in-columbus/page/19#post-484548 Fri, 25 Jan 2013 15:24:31 +0000 jbcmh81 484548@http://www.columbusunderground.com/forums/ <blockquote><cite>InnerCore <a href="http://www.columbusunderground.com/forums/topic/nba-in-columbus/page/19#post-484546">said</a>:</cite> Chicago 9.5M+ LA 14M+ NY 19M+ Philadelphia 6M+ Dallas 6.5M+ Washington 5.5M+ Detroit 5M+ Miami 5.5M+ Boston 4.5M+ SF 4M+ Minneapolis 3M+ Phoenix 4M+ Denver 2.5M+ Denver would be the closest comparable, they're the smallest and the NBA and NHL share the same arena. </blockquote> Thanks. So it looks like that NHL and NBA can exist in the same metro, but like has already been discussed in reference to Columbus, is not going to happen right now. InnerCore on "NBA in Columbus ?" http://www.columbusunderground.com/forums/topic/nba-in-columbus/page/19#post-484546 Fri, 25 Jan 2013 15:22:37 +0000 InnerCore 484546@http://www.columbusunderground.com/forums/ Chicago 9.5M+ LA 14M+ NY 19M+ Philadelphia 6M+ Dallas 6.5M+ Washington 5.5M+ Detroit 5M+ Miami 5.5M+ Boston 4.5M+ SF 4M+ Minneapolis 3M+ Phoenix 4M+ Denver 2.5M+ Denver would be the closest comparable, they're the smallest and the NBA and NHL share the same arena. jbcmh81 on "NBA in Columbus ?" http://www.columbusunderground.com/forums/topic/nba-in-columbus/page/19#post-484544 Fri, 25 Jan 2013 15:18:08 +0000 jbcmh81 484544@http://www.columbusunderground.com/forums/ <blockquote><cite>InnerCore <a href="http://www.columbusunderground.com/forums/topic/nba-in-columbus/page/19#post-484491">said</a>:</cite> <blockquote> I don't see where appreciation has anything to do with my argument. I appreciate the good things that are happening in Columbus. I love the short north area and while other people were trashing the architecture of High Point I was pointing out that the form of the building is great for its location. But you seem to be caught up in pride for the city, while I'm just an analyst looking at numbers, trends,etc.</blockquote> If you're just analyzing the trends, then your conclusions run directly in contradiction to them. Look, I don't expect you to love everything about Columbus. I don't either. Your rare bit of praise notwithstanding, I just really can't stand people who can't help but be constantly critical. It's not helpful and it's certainly not an objective way to look at any place, let alone Columbus. <blockquote> I love my wife and appreciate her more than anything. Does acknowledging that another woman has a better eating and exercising habits that leads to her having a more toned and attractive body somehow diminish how I feel about her? Of Course Not.</blockquote> That's kind of a silly comparison, but if you were as critical of your wife as you are of Columbus, you'd be in divorce proceedings. Your statements on Columbus would amount to saying to your wife, "Honey, I noticed you dropped a few pounds. Great job! But did you notice how all the neighbors look better than you?" <blockquote> So what does any of this have to do with where I live. It seems that in your world you cannot accept to live somewhere unless you buy into the notion that its the best place on earth.</blockquote> Not at all, I just don't understand living somewhere you clearly don't much care for. Also, if you're serious about improving a place, I'm not sure the best way to do that is to claim everywhere else is better. Why not get out there and work with the people who are improving it instead of just complaining? You might end up with a better appreciation for just how far the city has come and for all the people working to make it better already. I feel like most of your posts are a direct insult on those efforts. <blockquote> What's the problem with living in Columbus but recognizing that they are doing some things better in Cincinnati that we should be doing here? For the record I don't live here, I'm contemplating the move back.</blockquote> There's nothing wrong with recognizing that Columbus lacks some things that others cities have or that it's behind the curve on some things. You're not exactly breaking news by saying that. Then again, Cincinnati is behind the curve on things as well. There's probably not a city anywhere that can't be improved. The ironic thing is that there are people in all those other cities who find their own cities lacking and are wondering why they can't be like everywhere else as well. Cincinnati certainly has its own set of vocal detractors. And if that was my hometown, I'd be telling them the same thing. It's not helping. It assumes that all the people that are positive about the city are ignorant and unaware of the issues. They're not. <blockquote> I see your posts on city-data where you essentially trash everything non Columbus. You wan't to talk about how Columbus is going to surpass Cincinnati in 16 years when Charlotte is set to surpass Columbus in the next couple years. But yet to you that's different because all the people in NC are NASCAR loving, confederate flag waving hicks. Never mind the growth of educated young professionals exceeds Columbus.</blockquote> Based on trends, it's likely that, even if Charlotte passes Columbus, and it should, Columbus should remain #15 through 2020 as it passes other places. I've looked at this too. I'm kind of a stats guy. That said, the poster in reference that I made that post to is kind of a troll and I don't really care to make serious responses to their posts. But yeah, I kind of have a low opinion of NC in general, Charlotte included. It's far too socially conservative and sprawl-driven for my tastes. Your point about YP's seems great on the face of things, until you realize that high growth also means you're rapidly growing your population of HS dropouts and otherwise unemployed. Poverty in Charlotte increased much faster than in Columbus as well. <blockquote> So I get it. Columbus is better than Charlotte, Cincinnati, Minneapolis, Indianapolis, etc. If Columbus is growing faster than another city then that proof it's better. If Columbus is growing slower than another city, that's just because dumb hicks are moving there and their economy is about to implode.</blockquote> Columbus is better on some things than in those cities, not everything. You think that I'm just trying to be a homer and deflect all criticism, but that's not the case. Being a stats guy and appreciating trends and having studied them for years now, I am just comfortable saying that Columbus is doing very well and looks to continue to move in that direction. I just don't think the type of negativity you bring to the table matches the reality on the ground. <blockquote> I could care less which city is better. I'm trying to familiarize myself with how much cities are investing in transit, urban development, how many residential units are in the pipeline, etc.</blockquote> I think what you mean is that you couldn't care less, but if that were true, you couldn't bring up a new favorite city in every thread. You definitely care what other cities are doing, and so far, have yet to find one that isn't doing far better than Columbus is. How do you feel about Detroit in comparison? Columbus has over 10,000 residential units under construction or planned in the urban core. Whether you think that's good enough, I don't know. Probably not. <blockquote> Yes I feel that rail is a huge component that leads to huge amount of economic development from local as well as national companies. This is something Columbus is lacking right now.</blockquote> I agree it would be a good thing, and would love to see rail. I also think it's going to happen sooner thna you think. However, Columbus has done just fine growth-wise and economically without it, so I just don't see how it's going to fall apart or hit a wall because it lacks a train. Regardless, the city will get one. It's not a matter of if. <blockquote> But my opinions seem to be a bit more objective. You seem to be confusing me with all the people you argue with at city data. Like I said before if Columbus were to announce a large investment in rail and some type of large public private partnership to bring retail to downtown I'd probably do an about face over night.</blockquote> And that's your main problem. I just don't think it's all that objective to suggest that Columbus is not doing well or is way behind because it lacks a single development. If rail is really the only thing you find important, then basically nothing else we've discussed so far matters one bit. <blockquote> I studied real estate development and urbanism in gradute school. We learned about go and bad development and urban planning. I'm making my decision based off of the development or policy being made not whether I like the city or not. I live in Miami, what reason would I have to argue Cincinnati is making better decisions than Columbus?</blockquote> </blockquote> Forgive me, but I'm sure that all the people in the 1950s and 1960s studied it as well. Their response was to gut cities at every turn. You have your view, and that's fine, but it doesn't make Columbus' progress up to this point, which has been substantial, moot just because there's not a train. BTW, if you plan on following me all over the internet, the other forum I post on is Urban Ohio. I also have my own Columbus website if you're interested. Graybeak on "NBA in Columbus ?" http://www.columbusunderground.com/forums/topic/nba-in-columbus/page/19#post-484530 Fri, 25 Jan 2013 14:43:36 +0000 Graybeak 484530@http://www.columbusunderground.com/forums/ <blockquote><cite>jbcmh81 <a href="http://www.columbusunderground.com/forums/topic/nba-in-columbus/page/19#post-484522">said</a>:</cite> What examples are out there of cities that have both an NBA and NHL team? I really don't know and I'm curious how they manage it since many people seem to believe they both can't exist at the same time. </blockquote> Wow. OK. Boston, NYC, Toronto, Chicago, Detroit, Denver, Dallas, Minneapolis/ST Paul, Washington D C, Los Angeles are the first that pop into my head. Patch on "NBA in Columbus ?" http://www.columbusunderground.com/forums/topic/nba-in-columbus/page/19#post-484526 Fri, 25 Jan 2013 14:39:52 +0000 Patch 484526@http://www.columbusunderground.com/forums/ <blockquote><cite>jbcmh81 <a href="http://www.columbusunderground.com/forums/topic/nba-in-columbus/page/19#post-484466">said</a>:</cite> I guess we'll see. I have history on my side. What do you have again? </blockquote> I'm not sure what your stance is, you are pro NBA or not? Or just "Columbus is big enough?" jbcmh81 on "NBA in Columbus ?" http://www.columbusunderground.com/forums/topic/nba-in-columbus/page/19#post-484522 Fri, 25 Jan 2013 14:36:28 +0000 jbcmh81 484522@http://www.columbusunderground.com/forums/ <blockquote><cite>RedStorm <a href="http://www.columbusunderground.com/forums/topic/nba-in-columbus/page/19#post-484489">said</a>:</cite> I'm sure it's been said, but bringing the NBA puts the Blue Jackets in jeopardy. How many of the fans who go to games, support the team, are hardcore hockey fans and how many want a professional team to support (all due respect to the Clippers, Crew, or the lacrosse team)? The "average" or "common" sports fan I would bet would support an NBA franchise over an NHL team (No, I don't have stats other than TV viewership). So would the Jackets collapse (is that possible as a continual last place team)? I don't know. Is there enough support and fan money to support both? Probably not. I also heard this week that Columbus has the 3rd most adult hockey leagues in the country. Even as bad as last year was, the Jackets averaged 14.6K in attendance (granted, home games with Pittsburgh, Detriot, and Toronto help) Is that the floor for them? Who knows. </blockquote> What examples are out there of cities that have both an NBA and NHL team? I really don't know and I'm curious how they manage it since many people seem to believe they both can't exist at the same time. InnerCore on "NBA in Columbus ?" http://www.columbusunderground.com/forums/topic/nba-in-columbus/page/19#post-484491 Fri, 25 Jan 2013 13:07:05 +0000 InnerCore 484491@http://www.columbusunderground.com/forums/ I don't see where appreciation has anything to do with my argument. I appreciate the good things that are happening in Columbus. I love the short north area and while other people were trashing the architecture of High Point I was pointing out that the form of the building is great for its location. But you seem to be caught up in pride for the city, while I'm just an analyst looking at numbers, trends,etc. I love my wife and appreciate her more than anything. Does acknowledging that another woman has a better eating and exercising habits that leads to her having a more toned and attractive body somehow diminish how I feel about her? Of Course Not. So what does any of this have to do with where I live. It seems that in your world you cannot accept to live somewhere unless you buy into the notion that its the best place on earth. What's the problem with living in Columbus but recognizing that they are doing some things better in Cincinnati that we should be doing here? For the record I don't live here, I'm contemplating the move back. I see your posts on city-data where you essentially trash everything non Columbus. You wan't to talk about how Columbus is going to surpass Cincinnati in 16 years when Charlotte is set to surpass Columbus in the next couple years. But yet to you that's different because all the people in NC are NASCAR loving, confederate flag waving hicks. Never mind the growth of educated young professionals exceeds Columbus. So I get it. Columbus is better than Charlotte, Cincinnati, Minneapolis, Indianapolis, etc. If Columbus is growing faster than another city then that proof it's better. If Columbus is growing slower than another city, that's just because dumb hicks are moving there and their economy is about to implode. I could care less which city is better. I'm trying to familiarize myself with how much cities are investing in transit, urban development, how many residential units are in the pipeline, etc. Yes I feel that rail is a huge component that leads to huge amount of economic development from local as well as national companies. This is something Columbus is lacking right now. But my opinions seem to be a bit more objective. You seem to be confusing me with all the people you argue with at city data. Like I said before if Columbus were to announce a large investment in rail and some type of large public private partnership to bring retail to downtown I'd probably do an about face over night. I studied real estate development and urbanism in gradute school. We learned about go and bad development and urban planning. I'm making my decision based off of the development or policy being made not whether I like the city or not. I live in Miami, what reason would I have to argue Cincinnati is making better decisions than Columbus? RedStorm on "NBA in Columbus ?" http://www.columbusunderground.com/forums/topic/nba-in-columbus/page/19#post-484489 Fri, 25 Jan 2013 12:58:18 +0000 RedStorm 484489@http://www.columbusunderground.com/forums/ I'm sure it's been said, but bringing the NBA puts the Blue Jackets in jeopardy. How many of the fans who go to games, support the team, are hardcore hockey fans and how many want a professional team to support (all due respect to the Clippers, Crew, or the lacrosse team)? The "average" or "common" sports fan I would bet would support an NBA franchise over an NHL team (No, I don't have stats other than TV viewership). So would the Jackets collapse (is that possible as a continual last place team)? I don't know. Is there enough support and fan money to support both? Probably not. I also heard this week that Columbus has the 3rd most adult hockey leagues in the country. Even as bad as last year was, the Jackets averaged 14.6K in attendance (granted, home games with Pittsburgh, Detriot, and Toronto help) Is that the floor for them? Who knows. jbcmh81 on "NBA in Columbus ?" http://www.columbusunderground.com/forums/topic/nba-in-columbus/page/19#post-484466 Fri, 25 Jan 2013 12:03:52 +0000 jbcmh81 484466@http://www.columbusunderground.com/forums/ <blockquote><cite>InnerCore <a href="http://www.columbusunderground.com/forums/topic/nba-in-columbus/page/19#post-484454">said</a>:</cite> <blockquote> Which pro sport are you talking about. Ohio already has 2 NFL and 2 MLB teams left. We got the NHL and MLS and that's probably the extent of it.</blockquote> I don't know what other pro sport would be most likely, I'm just saying I think it's a good possibility. The Columbus MSA will be about 500K people larger by then, if not more, while Columbus city will exceed 1 million. <blockquote> No I actually don't as of right now. That's not to say that wont change, they could announce tomorrow that were building light rail, and converting half of the downtown parking garage to a mixed use district along High st. I'd probably reverse my views overnight. But expectations are usually based on something tangible.</blockquote> You mean like growth rates the past 30 years that you have so far continously ignored and suggested will slow down based on nothing more than a hunch? <blockquote> I agree that Columbus has invested in some places. I think the Arena is one of them, but that was back in 1998 - 2000. I think this helped it grow in the past, for example 2001 saw above average growth. The rest of the Arena District isn't that great as a place to come live/work/play.</blockquote> There are two arenas, the last one built in 2009. There's also LC Pavillion, bars and restaurants, parks and more residential and office projects under construction. It's also within walking distance to Downtown, the Short North, North Market, the Convention Center, etc. I'd say this represents a fantastic area to live/work. How ridiculously high do your standards have to be to think otherwise? <blockquote> It's not mixed use. You drive down and park then get in your car when your done and leave. This should of been a district that brought a lot of retail and they missed the mark.</blockquote> I'm sorry, but you have to be kidding here. First, retail is one of the most competitive and saturated markets. You can't force retail to open up if there isn't a market for it. But to seriously suggest that the Arena District is not mixed-use is absolutely ignorant. <blockquote> I think the Columbus commons is a step in the right direction, but you essentially talking about one small project.</blockquote> A bunch of smaller projects can have the same impact as a single large one, though I wouldn't call some of these projects small. CC has been a tremendous success by any measure. <blockquote> I agree these things will increase residents downtown. But it's sort of doing as little as possible to get by. It's like changing the streets to two way. Is that a good and needed change, you bet. But its a very small incremental change.</blockquote> This is essentially how the Short North grew, organically over time. Tell me how much you think is wrong with that neighborhood. I don't think anyone disagrees that more needs to happen to continue to increase Downtown's vibrancy, but I completely disagree with you acting like what's been done so far has had a neglibiable or small impact overall. Compared to 10 years ago, the difference is night and day. <blockquote> Meanwhile other cities are taking bigger approaches. So $1.5B over the last decade is cool, but forgive me if I have higher expectations for Cincinnati where there investing $1.5B now in addition to streetcars, public parks, etc.</blockquote> So move to Cincinnati. Or Portland. Or Charlotte. Or one of the hundreds of other cities you love more. If you cannot appreciate all the change that has occurred in COLUMBUS, then there's nothing I can say. <blockquote> Our new riverfront park basically has no interaction with anything. We've basically got office buildings along the river. Their new riverfront park is between a football and baseball stadium, and walks up to a mixed use district with residential, retail, entertainment and housing. And will be soon be connected with a street car line. If they announced the things they were doing in Cincinnati you would be going nuts with excitement. And then I would foresee a scenario where Columbus exceeds expectations as more plausible.</blockquote> So again, why are you in Columbus? You clearly think it's small level and beneath you compared to everywhere else. You strike me as someone that will not be happy here and will bitch about and belittle everything that happens and generally be an incredibly negative voice. I'm sorry that you don't appreciate anything about the city or that you find rail to be the singular worthy investment a city can make. You have a choice as to where you live. There are many people doing many great things to improve this city and there have been significant strides made in that direction, and you being miserable is just no excuse to drag all those efforts continuously through the mud. <blockquote> And I've stated that I agree with the expectations of Columbus' growth, I'm just curious as to why in a world when cities are focusing on investing in public transportation and Columbus is instead focusing on roads you think Columbus will exceed expectations other than wishful thinking.</blockquote> </blockquote> I guess we'll see. I have history on my side. What do you have again? InnerCore on "NBA in Columbus ?" http://www.columbusunderground.com/forums/topic/nba-in-columbus/page/19#post-484454 Fri, 25 Jan 2013 11:33:44 +0000 InnerCore 484454@http://www.columbusunderground.com/forums/ <blockquote><cite>jbcmh81 <a href="http://www.columbusunderground.com/forums/topic/nba-in-columbus/page/18#post-483785">said</a>:</cite> I don't know about the NBA, but I do think Columbus has a good chance of getting another pro sport at some point over the next few decades. </blockquote> Which pro sport are you talking about. Ohio already has 2 NFL and 2 MLB teams left. We got the NHL and MLS and that's probably the extent of it. <blockquote><cite>jbcmh81 <a href="http://www.columbusunderground.com/forums/topic/nba-in-columbus/page/18#post-483785">said</a>:</cite> Second, Columbus is not just trying to add residents Downtown. The last 10 years has seen about $1.5 billion in public/private investment, including the Arena District, Scioto Mile, Columbus Commons, Scioto Audubon Metro Park, etc. You also have the upcoming restoration of the Scioto River with more parkland, public art projects, and the redevelopment of the Scioto Peninsula. The growing level of residents is a direct result of these investments, not in spite of them. So your only two possible outcomes benefit Cincinnati more. You can foresee no scenario in which Columbus outperforms expectations, Cincinnati underperforms or where both metros essentially stay where they were the last 10 years? Why are none of those plausible?</blockquote> No I actually don't as of right now. That's not to say that wont change, they could announce tomorrow that were building light rail, and converting half of the downtown parking garage to a mixed use district along High st. I'd probably reverse my views overnight. But expectations are usually based on something tangible. I agree that Columbus has invested in some places. I think the Arena is one of them, but that was back in 1998 - 2000. I think this helped it grow in the past, for example 2001 saw above average growth. The rest of the Arena District isn't that great as a place to come live/work/play. It's not mixed use. You drive down and park then get in your car when your done and leave. This should of been a district that brought a lot of retail and they missed the mark. I think the Columbus commons is a step in the right direction, but you essentially talking about one small project. I agree these things will increase residents downtown. But it's sort of doing as little as possible to get by. It's like changing the streets to two way. Is that a good and needed change, you bet. But its a very small incremental change. Meanwhile other cities are taking bigger approaches. So $1.5B over the last decade is cool, but forgive me if I have higher expectations for Cincinnati where there investing $1.5B now in addition to streetcars, public parks, etc. Our new riverfront park basically has no interaction with anything. We've basically got office buildings along the river. Their new riverfront park is between a football and baseball stadium, and walks up to a mixed use district with residential, retail, entertainment and housing. And will be soon be connected with a street car line. If they announced the things they were doing in Cincinnati you would be going nuts with excitement. And then I would foresee a scenario where Columbus exceeds expectations as more plausible. And I've stated that I agree with the expectations of Columbus' growth, I'm just curious as to why in a world when cities are focusing on investing in public transportation and Columbus is instead focusing on roads you think Columbus will exceed expectations other than wishful thinking. InnerCore on "NBA in Columbus ?" http://www.columbusunderground.com/forums/topic/nba-in-columbus/page/19#post-484436 Fri, 25 Jan 2013 10:37:39 +0000 InnerCore 484436@http://www.columbusunderground.com/forums/ Here is the information from 2008 for the Columbus MSA. Delaware: 8120 in, 5504 out, 2616 gain Fairfield: 5964 in, 5216 out, 748 gain Franklin: 24867 in, 24857 out, 10 gain Licking: 5316 in, 4742 out, 574 gain Pickaway: 2516 in, 2220 out, 296 gain Union: 2325 in, 1885 out, 440 gain Total: 4684 gain Same info from 2010: Delaware: 8230 in, 5466 out, 2764 gain Fairfield: 5870 in, 2033 out 837 gain Franklin: 23074 in, 24798 out, 1724 loss Licking: 5165 in, 4225 out, 940 gain Pickaway: 2236 in, 1891 out, 345 gain Union: 1850 in, 1741 out, 109 gain Total: 3,271 gain InnerCore on "NBA in Columbus ?" http://www.columbusunderground.com/forums/topic/nba-in-columbus/page/19#post-484419 Fri, 25 Jan 2013 09:26:37 +0000 InnerCore 484419@http://www.columbusunderground.com/forums/ <blockquote><cite>ricospaz <a href="http://www.columbusunderground.com/forums/topic/nba-in-columbus/page/19#post-484417">said</a>:</cite> Nice, graphs from 2008. I moved twice, got married, had a kid since then. </blockquote> If you read what I actually wrote beyond just looking at the graphs you'd see that I used the same information up to 2010 and the trend was that less in state people are migrating to Columbus. ricospaz on "NBA in Columbus ?" http://www.columbusunderground.com/forums/topic/nba-in-columbus/page/19#post-484417 Fri, 25 Jan 2013 09:14:11 +0000 ricospaz 484417@http://www.columbusunderground.com/forums/ Nice, graphs from 2008. I moved twice, got married, had a kid since then. joshlapp on "NBA in Columbus ?" http://www.columbusunderground.com/forums/topic/nba-in-columbus/page/19#post-484411 Fri, 25 Jan 2013 08:52:15 +0000 joshlapp 484411@http://www.columbusunderground.com/forums/ <blockquote><cite>Patch <a href="http://www.columbusunderground.com/forums/topic/nba-in-columbus/page/19#post-484403">said</a>:</cite> Hispanics and Somolians? Do they follow the NBA? </blockquote> Guess that its good for the Crew! Maybe we can be the first US city to have 2 pro futbol teams! Walker on "NBA in Columbus ?" http://www.columbusunderground.com/forums/topic/nba-in-columbus/page/19#post-484408 Fri, 25 Jan 2013 08:33:09 +0000 Walker 484408@http://www.columbusunderground.com/forums/ <blockquote><cite>Patch <a href="http://www.columbusunderground.com/forums/topic/nba-in-columbus/page/19#post-484403">said</a>:</cite> Hispanics and Somolians? Do they follow the NBA? </blockquote> I hear that football is the most popular international sport in the world. O-H!