Columbus Underground Messageboard » Topic: Kasich vs SB221

Columbus Underground Messageboard » Topic: Kasich vs SB221 http://www.columbusunderground.com/forums/topic/kasich-vs-sb221 ColumbusUnderground.com Messageboard en-US Wed, 22 May 2013 13:15:35 +0000 http://bbpress.org/?v=1.0.2 <![CDATA[Search]]> q http://www.columbusunderground.com/forums/search.php Red Sun Rising on "Kasich vs SB221" http://www.columbusunderground.com/forums/topic/kasich-vs-sb221/page/6#post-496928 Mon, 08 Apr 2013 16:06:57 +0000 Red Sun Rising 496928@http://www.columbusunderground.com/forums/ Ohio's Clean Energy law is under attack. With no federal renewable energy or energy efficiency standards in place, Ohio's SB 221 is the only law on the books to move Ohio beyond fossil fuels like coal, oil, and natural gas - towards clean energy like efficiency, wind, solar, and geothermal. Help us save Ohio's Clean Energy Law by Joining us Monday at 7pm Now - five years after it was passed - FirstEnergy and ALEC are lobbying our legislators to move backwards on energy. With formal legislation to roll back our clean energy standards introduced, it seems they are gaining ground. Now it's up to us to hold our governor and our legislators accountable to make sure that Ohio continues on a path towards clean energy. Join us as we make plans to make this the Earth month when we saved clean energy in Ohio by joining us Monday at 7pm Come to the Sierra Club office for our Issue Brief Monday, April 8th at 7pm to learn about these legislative attacks and how you can protect clean energy! Where: Sierra Club office located at the corner of High & Long downtown (map) 131 N. High St., Suite 605, Columbus, OH 43215 *bike & bus, or paid parking is available on street meters and adjacent lots) When: Monday, April 8th, at 7pm *snacks will be provided Will you be here tonight? Thanks for all you do to Explore, Enjoy and Protect the Planet, Rashay Layman and Brian Kunkemoeller rus on "Kasich vs SB221" http://www.columbusunderground.com/forums/topic/kasich-vs-sb221/page/6#post-433086 Thu, 03 May 2012 23:52:22 +0000 rus 433086@http://www.columbusunderground.com/forums/ <blockquote><cite>pedex <a href="http://www.columbusunderground.com/forums/topic/kasich-vs-sb221/page/6#post-433085">said</a>:</cite> Sometimes it isn't about the technology but govt set up and policy. </blockquote> Both, though, isn't it? If government policy dictates that more expensive technology must be used, then there is a higher societal cost as well. Presuming an expansive welfare state, higher cost energy would necessitate higher end user costs and higher taxes to subsidize the low end of the consumer pool. Similarly, lower energy costs have the inverse effect. As to German government policy: <a href="http://www.reuters.com/article/2012/05/02/germany-electricity-idUSL5E8G2HOX20120502" rel="nofollow">http://www.reuters.com/article/2012/05/02/germany-electricity-idUSL5E8G2HOX20120502</a> <blockquote>BERLIN, May 2 (Reuters) - Germany's accelerated nuclear exit and its increased reliance on renewables is likely to cause a power gap equivalent to the output of up to 15 plants by 2020, participants at a high-level energy meeting agreed on Wednesday, according to sources. The meeting hosted by Chancellor Angela Merkel and attended by leading energy executives reached no decisions on how to fill the shortfall, the sources told Reuters.</blockquote> pedex on "Kasich vs SB221" http://www.columbusunderground.com/forums/topic/kasich-vs-sb221/page/6#post-433085 Thu, 03 May 2012 23:35:43 +0000 pedex 433085@http://www.columbusunderground.com/forums/ <blockquote><cite>rus <a href="http://www.columbusunderground.com/forums/topic/kasich-vs-sb221/page/6#post-433084">said</a>:</cite> Where in the US is solar cheaper than petroleum based energy? </blockquote> wrong point care to explain so many US residents are on food assistance and utility assistance yet we have no excuses? Might wanna read your really poorly translated article again too, what's the spread tween end user and generation cost? dunno bout you but here in Columbus I pay about 14 cents per kwhr. Sometimes it isn't about the technology but govt set up and policy. rus on "Kasich vs SB221" http://www.columbusunderground.com/forums/topic/kasich-vs-sb221/page/6#post-433084 Thu, 03 May 2012 23:27:32 +0000 rus 433084@http://www.columbusunderground.com/forums/ <blockquote><cite>pedex <a href="http://www.columbusunderground.com/forums/topic/kasich-vs-sb221/page/6#post-433078">said</a>:</cite> care to explain the US? </blockquote> Where in the US is solar cheaper than petroleum based energy? pedex on "Kasich vs SB221" http://www.columbusunderground.com/forums/topic/kasich-vs-sb221/page/6#post-433078 Thu, 03 May 2012 23:00:45 +0000 pedex 433078@http://www.columbusunderground.com/forums/ <blockquote><cite>rus <a href="http://www.columbusunderground.com/forums/topic/kasich-vs-sb221/page/6#post-433074">said</a>:</cite> Solar is working out great in Germany... right? <a href="http://translate.google.com/translate?sl=de&tl=en&js=n&prev=_t&hl=en&ie=UTF-8&layout=2&eotf=1&u=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.welt.de%2Fwirtschaft%2Farticle106236425%2FStrom-ist-fuer-viele-Deutsche-unbezahlbar-geworden.html&act=url" rel="nofollow">http://translate.google.com/translate?sl=de&tl=en&js=n&prev=_t&hl=en&ie=UTF-8&layout=2&eotf=1&u=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.welt.de%2Fwirtschaft%2Farticle106236425%2FStrom-ist-fuer-viele-Deutsche-unbezahlbar-geworden.html&act=url</a> <blockquote>Electricity for many German become unaffordable Hundreds of thousands of households in Germany can not pay their electricity more and are therefore suspended from the grid. The rising prices of the energy transition have exacerbated the situation. </blockquote> About that cost per MGW figure... </blockquote> care to explain the US? rus on "Kasich vs SB221" http://www.columbusunderground.com/forums/topic/kasich-vs-sb221/page/6#post-433074 Thu, 03 May 2012 22:45:47 +0000 rus 433074@http://www.columbusunderground.com/forums/ Solar is working out great in Germany... right? <a href="http://translate.google.com/translate?sl=de&tl=en&js=n&prev=_t&hl=en&ie=UTF-8&layout=2&eotf=1&u=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.welt.de%2Fwirtschaft%2Farticle106236425%2FStrom-ist-fuer-viele-Deutsche-unbezahlbar-geworden.html&act=url" rel="nofollow">http://translate.google.com/translate?sl=de&tl=en&js=n&prev=_t&hl=en&ie=UTF-8&layout=2&eotf=1&u=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.welt.de%2Fwirtschaft%2Farticle106236425%2FStrom-ist-fuer-viele-Deutsche-unbezahlbar-geworden.html&act=url</a> <blockquote>Electricity for many German become unaffordable Hundreds of thousands of households in Germany can not pay their electricity more and are therefore suspended from the grid. The rising prices of the energy transition have exacerbated the situation. </blockquote> About that cost per MGW figure... Red Sun Rising on "Kasich vs SB221" http://www.columbusunderground.com/forums/topic/kasich-vs-sb221/page/6#post-433072 Thu, 03 May 2012 22:31:03 +0000 Red Sun Rising 433072@http://www.columbusunderground.com/forums/ howatzer said: OK, solar, great. Let's do it!!!! First some quick math - we use about 200 billion kWh in Ohio. A solar panel here will generate an average of 3 kWh/m^2. So, 200x10^9 kWh/ 3x10^0 kWh/m^2 = 66x10^9 m^2 = 67,000 km^2 = 26,000 square miles of solar panels. Total Oh land area = 40,000 square miles. OK, so now we just need to decide which half of Ohio we want to bulldoze and cover in solar panels!!!! <blockquote><cite>pedex <a href="http://www.columbusunderground.com/forums/topic/kasich-vs-sb221/page/6#post-433070">said</a>:</cite> that assumes a grid system and remote generation and also assumes the same 65% loss we deal with now using our grid and coal fired system </blockquote> Sometimes we have options not yet implemented that might prove to be exactly what we need: Solar Roadways <a href="http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Ep4L18zOEYI" rel="nofollow">http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Ep4L18zOEYI</a> TEDx The Promise of Solar Roadways <a href="http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=nvWTaqUvsfA" rel="nofollow">http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=nvWTaqUvsfA</a> YERT Conversion 19.1 Solar Roadways <a href="http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=J3PeSm6_hTE" rel="nofollow">http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=J3PeSm6_hTE</a> pedex on "Kasich vs SB221" http://www.columbusunderground.com/forums/topic/kasich-vs-sb221/page/6#post-433070 Thu, 03 May 2012 22:03:19 +0000 pedex 433070@http://www.columbusunderground.com/forums/ <blockquote><cite>howatzer <a href="http://www.columbusunderground.com/forums/topic/kasich-vs-sb221/page/5#post-394303">said</a>:</cite> OK, solar, great. Let's do it!!!! First some quick math - we use about 200 billion kWh in Ohio. A solar panel here will generate an average of 3 kWh/m^2. So, 200x10^9 kWh/ 3x10^0 kWh/m^2 = 66x10^9 m^2 = 67,000 km^2 = 26,000 square miles of solar panels. Total Oh land area = 40,000 square miles. OK, so now we just need to decide which half of Ohio we want to bulldoze and cover in solar panels!!!! </blockquote> that assumes a grid system and remote generation and also assumes the same 65% loss we deal with now using our grid and coal fired system Red Sun Rising on "Kasich vs SB221" http://www.columbusunderground.com/forums/topic/kasich-vs-sb221/page/6#post-433048 Thu, 03 May 2012 21:15:04 +0000 Red Sun Rising 433048@http://www.columbusunderground.com/forums/ Interesting, he's now onto co-generation....if done right, that is a good thing. <a href="http://www.dispatch.com/content/stories/local/2012/05/03/kasich-jabs-at-renewable-energy-lobby.html" rel="nofollow">http://www.dispatch.com/content/stories/local/2012/05/03/kasich-jabs-at-renewable-energy-lobby.html</a> Gas for co-generation need not come from fracking or drilling, that is a bad plan, however co-generation can be perfectly sustainable from connecting to closed looped, non emissions, waste to energy technologies involving gasification. Since Ohio is home to one of the largest tire dumps in the country that can actually be seen from space, we literally have enough tires alone (not including entire landfills full of waste or mountains of coal finds polluting the state from 150 year old decommissioned mines) to power Ohio for probably 200 years if using waste to energy technology powered co-generation. We don't need livestock waste to power waste to energy technologies, we have enough of our own waste to produce so many products into a myriad of bio-fuels. Red Sun Rising on "Kasich vs SB221" http://www.columbusunderground.com/forums/topic/kasich-vs-sb221/page/6#post-397578 Fri, 14 Oct 2011 15:41:40 +0000 Red Sun Rising 397578@http://www.columbusunderground.com/forums/ ugh. right: putrefying, not purifying. See waste to energy technologies. They are cheaper than conventional sources in every way. Subsidizing dirty coal and fossil fuels while stifling better options is a bad plan for everyone. Diverting waste from water ways and land fills and converting it to power makes better sense than the present status quo path we are being ramrodded with. rus on "Kasich vs SB221" http://www.columbusunderground.com/forums/topic/kasich-vs-sb221/page/6#post-397404 Thu, 13 Oct 2011 17:25:23 +0000 rus 397404@http://www.columbusunderground.com/forums/ <blockquote><cite>Red Sun Rising <a href="http://www.columbusunderground.com/forums/topic/kasich-vs-sb221/page/6#post-397401">said</a>:</cite> Unabated drilling/mining/fracking/exploding and otherwise purifying earth is only the path of arrogant morons. </blockquote> You don't really mean "purifying" there, do you? I don't think anyone is advocating a Soviet style disregard for all environmental concerns. As to better options: I support research to find them, but right now they just don't exist. As in the cost per MGW is much higher than conventional sources. Red Sun Rising on "Kasich vs SB221" http://www.columbusunderground.com/forums/topic/kasich-vs-sb221/page/6#post-397401 Thu, 13 Oct 2011 16:56:32 +0000 Red Sun Rising 397401@http://www.columbusunderground.com/forums/ <blockquote><cite>rus <a href="http://www.columbusunderground.com/forums/topic/kasich-vs-sb221/page/6#post-397390">said</a>:</cite> You'll pardon me if I dismiss your source. Playing a guessing game with future, possibly unrelated due to multiple variables, costs to inhibit known benefits of existing technologies just because those technologies don't subscribe to your preferred outcome isn't viable. </blockquote> Economics- determining how to satisfy unlimited wants given earth's limited resources. You can pretend all day that your logic is sound, yet you are functioning on a platform that fails to consider the limitations we have. Frankly, in the simplest form: if there is no ecology, there in no economy. Unabated drilling/mining/fracking/exploding and otherwise purifying earth is only the path of arrogant morons. We have better options, and if it costs a little more up front for the preservation of sustainable life as we know it, so be it. rus on "Kasich vs SB221" http://www.columbusunderground.com/forums/topic/kasich-vs-sb221/page/6#post-397390 Thu, 13 Oct 2011 15:26:35 +0000 rus 397390@http://www.columbusunderground.com/forums/ <blockquote><cite>Red Sun Rising <a href="http://www.columbusunderground.com/forums/topic/kasich-vs-sb221/page/6#post-397351">said</a>:</cite> Once again, you are not considering all the costs. Take a look at the health care costs of dirty energy: <a href="http://www.eichealth.org/docs/eic%20midwestern%20case%20study1.pdf" rel="nofollow">http://www.eichealth.org/docs/eic%20midwestern%20case%20study1.pdf</a> </blockquote> You'll pardon me if I dismiss your source. Playing a guessing game with future, possibly unrelated due to multiple variables, costs to inhibit known benefits of existing technologies just because those technologies don't subscribe to your preferred outcome isn't viable. Red Sun Rising on "Kasich vs SB221" http://www.columbusunderground.com/forums/topic/kasich-vs-sb221/page/6#post-397351 Thu, 13 Oct 2011 10:54:59 +0000 Red Sun Rising 397351@http://www.columbusunderground.com/forums/ <blockquote><cite>rus <a href="http://www.columbusunderground.com/forums/topic/kasich-vs-sb221/page/6#post-394998">said</a>:</cite> FTFY </blockquote> Once again, you are not considering all the costs. Take a look at the health care costs of dirty energy: <a href="http://www.eichealth.org/docs/eic%20midwestern%20case%20study1.pdf" rel="nofollow">http://www.eichealth.org/docs/eic%20midwestern%20case%20study1.pdf</a> rus on "Kasich vs SB221" http://www.columbusunderground.com/forums/topic/kasich-vs-sb221/page/6#post-394998 Thu, 29 Sep 2011 11:06:56 +0000 rus 394998@http://www.columbusunderground.com/forums/ <blockquote><cite>Red Sun Rising <a href="http://www.columbusunderground.com/forums/topic/kasich-vs-sb221/page/6#post-394997">said</a>:</cite> If anything, that one trick pony is a <strike>very distant 2nd from waste to energy technology but it is still infinitely better</strike> much more expensive than fracking. </blockquote> FTFY Red Sun Rising on "Kasich vs SB221" http://www.columbusunderground.com/forums/topic/kasich-vs-sb221/page/6#post-394997 Thu, 29 Sep 2011 11:02:36 +0000 Red Sun Rising 394997@http://www.columbusunderground.com/forums/ <blockquote><cite>howatzer <a href="http://www.columbusunderground.com/forums/topic/kasich-vs-sb221/page/5#post-394303">said</a>:</cite> OK, solar, great. Let's do it!!!! First some quick math - we use about 200 billion kWh in Ohio. A solar panel here will generate an average of 3 kWh/m^2. So, 200x10^9 kWh/ 3x10^0 kWh/m^2 = 66x10^9 m^2 = 67,000 km^2 = 26,000 square miles of solar panels. Total Oh land area = 40,000 square miles. OK, so now we just need to decide which half of Ohio we want to bulldoze and cover in solar panels!!!! </blockquote> Seriously? Have you read anything on this thread or are you just a troll? We did not ever suggest solar was a singluar solution. If anything, that one trick pony is a very distant 2nd from waste to energy technology but it is still infinitely better than fracking. rus on "Kasich vs SB221" http://www.columbusunderground.com/forums/topic/kasich-vs-sb221/page/6#post-394996 Thu, 29 Sep 2011 11:00:32 +0000 rus 394996@http://www.columbusunderground.com/forums/ <blockquote><cite>Red Sun Rising <a href="http://www.columbusunderground.com/forums/topic/kasich-vs-sb221/page/6#post-394995">said</a>:</cite> Jobs and money at what cost?? Sorry, fracking is not the answer, we have better options and our policy makers need to support and ensure those. </blockquote> Fracking is here, it's working, and it's not going to stop. We do not have better options. We might someday ( insert support for research that results in alt energy generation at a lower price point than fossil fuel ) but that day is not today. Red Sun Rising on "Kasich vs SB221" http://www.columbusunderground.com/forums/topic/kasich-vs-sb221/page/6#post-394995 Thu, 29 Sep 2011 10:58:15 +0000 Red Sun Rising 394995@http://www.columbusunderground.com/forums/ <blockquote><cite>rus <a href="http://www.columbusunderground.com/forums/topic/kasich-vs-sb221/page/6#post-394312">said</a>:</cite> On that specifically given the <a href="http://www.columbusunderground.com/forums/topic/natural-gas-drilling/page/11#post-393973">economic gains</a> from fracking I'd guess it's going to happen. Should be done as safely as possible of course, but there's no way the state should turn down this energy source. There's too much money to be made and too many jobs to be had. </blockquote> Jobs and money at what cost?? Sorry, fracking is not the answer, we have better options and our policy makers need to support and ensure those. rus on "Kasich vs SB221" http://www.columbusunderground.com/forums/topic/kasich-vs-sb221/page/6#post-394312 Sat, 24 Sep 2011 13:20:22 +0000 rus 394312@http://www.columbusunderground.com/forums/ <blockquote><cite>Crispus3000 <a href="http://www.columbusunderground.com/forums/topic/kasich-vs-sb221/page/5#post-394301">said</a>:</cite> My point is that if some, not all, folks use ANY clean energy technology it would- 1. Put less pollution in the air. Since we have all this natural gas, it only makes sense to use it as long as we can burn it (and ALL the methane we produce from waste) with NO emissions. From my perspective on the fracking to get at the natural gas....this is some dangerous stuff the way the politicians are letting the drillers go about it. They can't predict where the cracks are going! I just hope our great grandchildren are not the recipients of massive earthquakes on the east coast, OH, PA, WV, NY, et al, brought on by destabilization of trillions of cubic yards of shale from fracking. This could turn out very badly…..forever. </blockquote> On that specifically given the <a href="http://www.columbusunderground.com/forums/topic/natural-gas-drilling/page/11#post-393973">economic gains</a> from fracking I'd guess it's going to happen. Should be done as safely as possible of course, but there's no way the state should turn down this energy source. There's too much money to be made and too many jobs to be had. howatzer on "Kasich vs SB221" http://www.columbusunderground.com/forums/topic/kasich-vs-sb221/page/5#post-394303 Sat, 24 Sep 2011 11:19:23 +0000 howatzer 394303@http://www.columbusunderground.com/forums/ OK, solar, great. Let's do it!!!! First some quick math - we use about 200 billion kWh in Ohio. A solar panel here will generate an average of 3 kWh/m^2. So, 200x10^9 kWh/ 3x10^0 kWh/m^2 = 66x10^9 m^2 = 67,000 km^2 = 26,000 square miles of solar panels. Total Oh land area = 40,000 square miles. OK, so now we just need to decide which half of Ohio we want to bulldoze and cover in solar panels!!!!