http://www.columbusunderground.com/forums/tags/nba ColumbusUnderground.com Messageboard en-US Sat, 18 May 2013 15:47:23 +0000 http://bbpress.org/?v=1.0.2 q http://www.columbusunderground.com/forums/search.php http://www.columbusunderground.com/forums/topic/jason-collins-gay/page/3#post-500465 Wed, 01 May 2013 10:21:53 +0000 geoyui 500465@http://www.columbusunderground.com/forums/ <p>@ChrisSunami - appreciate the info.</p> <p>In terms of Chris Broussard, I've always thought that his own personal views on religion should have never been inserted into the discussion. Both him and Jason Collins are Christian, both interpret their faith differently, because it's a personal relationship with God and his teachings. Who is to say which man is a better Christian? Religion IMO should have never been mentioned. </p> http://www.columbusunderground.com/forums/topic/jason-collins-gay/page/3#post-500449 Wed, 01 May 2013 09:53:17 +0000 RedStorm 500449@http://www.columbusunderground.com/forums/ <p>I agree with a lot of what Chris said. If you look at what Jesus did according to the Bible, he spent a lot of his team with people who were "looked down upon" so to speak. He spent time with lepers, which went against the social norm. He ate with tax collectors and prostitues, which also was not normal behavior for society. He was all about caring for those whose lives were more difficult, be it the poor, children, etc. As he said, "What you do for the least of us, you do for me." I'm not implying gay people are "lesser than us" or anything like that (I used the best examples Scriptures have to offer), but certainly Jesus was INCLUSIVE, not EXCLUSIVE. You can go ahead and say "being gay is living in open sin," but couldn't the same be said of the prostitutes? He didn't turn them away and shun them.</p> <p>I'm not sure why Chris Broussard felt the need to get on his high horse and determine that Jason Collins can't be called a Christian (who are we to judge that?). I also don't know why Tim Brando felt the need to make sure Jason Collins does not equate to a hero. But oh wait, he called Darius Rucker a hero for donating concert proceeds to charity. Just be consistent. </p> http://www.columbusunderground.com/forums/topic/jason-collins-gay/page/3#post-500386 Tue, 30 Apr 2013 21:46:50 +0000 bman 500386@http://www.columbusunderground.com/forums/ <p>I struggle with this gay= sin thing for a couple reason:</p> <p>1. Being gay is not a choice, we are all made in Gods image.<br /> 2. God makes no mistakes.<br /> 3. How many times do you think a gay or lesbian young person prays for God to change them. A lot of gays pray their whole life for God to change them and it NEVER happens .... Maybe God doesn't want us to change.<br /> 4. I don't buy that the bible is 100% accurate. I think being Christan is a personal relationship with God. It is a two Soul relationship, just me and God. God knows my heart .... You people don't. </p> http://www.columbusunderground.com/forums/topic/jason-collins-gay/page/3#post-500385 Tue, 30 Apr 2013 21:03:54 +0000 ChrisSunami 500385@http://www.columbusunderground.com/forums/ <p>What's your agenda? Clearly you don't actually yourself believe any of the passages you're quoting. Are you genuinely interested in getting an actual Christian perspective on this issue, or are you chiefly interested in promoting the orthodoxy that Christianity is intrinsically homophobic? </p> http://www.columbusunderground.com/forums/topic/jason-collins-gay/page/3#post-500384 Tue, 30 Apr 2013 20:25:39 +0000 InnerCore 500384@http://www.columbusunderground.com/forums/ <blockquote><p><cite>ChrisSunami <a href="http://www.columbusunderground.com/forums/topic/jason-collins-gay/page/2#post-500368">said</a>:</cite><br /> The Bible does mention homosexuality, Jesus does not. The largest portion of the Bible is the pre-Christian Scriptures retained from the Jewish tradition, i.e. the Old Testament, including the passage from Leviticus quoted by IC above. (Throughout Christian history, starting with Saint Paul, the mainstream Christian view has been that Old Testament law is not binding on followers of Christ post-Resurrection.)</p> <p>The New Testament has four books, the gospels, dealing with the actions and words of Jesus, one additional book, Acts, dealing with the actions and words of the disciples post-Resurrection, a large number of letters written by various apostles, chiefly Saint Paul (including Romans) and one prophetic dream and/or coded message (Revelations), typically attributed to the gospel-writer John.</p> <p>While it's clear that Saint Paul --one of the most important and central figures in Christianity --was deeply opposed to homosexuality, it's not nearly as clear that his few brief mentions of the topic are intended to establish a divinely inspired doctrine, versus just a statement of his own opinion.</p> <p>If you take the Gospels as the central and most important portion of the Bible, which I would argue is the proper approach for a Christian, you'll find that the nearly all of what Jesus preached revolved around a) having a personal, faith-guided relationship with God and b) being in service to other human beings, particularly the poor. The notion of Christians being obsessed with others' sexual behaviors is entirely alien to the actual gospel message. </p></blockquote> <p>My argument was always why listen to what man wrote. But the response was always that the New Testament is the word of God. </p> <p>Essentially Jesus had plenty to say to the disciples, but that they couldn't bear at the time. </p> <p><blockquote>John 16:12–14:“I still have many things to say to you, but you cannot bear them now. When the Spirit of truth comes, he will guide you into all the truth, for he will not speak on his own authority, but whatever he hears he will speak, and he will declare to you the things that are to come. He will glorify me, for he will take what is mine and declare it to you.</blockquote> </p> <p>As you agree Paul's writing was part of the scriptures:</p> <p><blockquote>2 Peter 3:16: as he does in all his letters when he speaks in them of these matters. There are some things in them that are hard to understand, which the ignorant and unstable twist to their own destruction, as they do the other Scriptures.</blockquote></p> <p>The scriptures are the word of god:</p> <p><blockquote>2 Timothy 3:16: All Scripture is breathed out by God and profitable for teaching, for reproof, for correction, and for training in righteousness</blockquote></p> <p><blockquote>2 Peter 1:20–21: knowing this first of all, that no prophecy of scripture comes from someone’s own interpretation. For no prophecy was ever produced by the will of man, but men spoke from God as they were carried along by the Holy Spirit.</blockquote></p> <p>So if prophecy of scripture doesn't come from someone's own interpretation, that would mean that Paul's scriptures aren't his own interpretations and is inspired doctrine. </p> http://www.columbusunderground.com/forums/topic/jason-collins-gay/page/3#post-500381 Tue, 30 Apr 2013 19:21:23 +0000 Coremodels 500381@http://www.columbusunderground.com/forums/ <p>I think Jeb Bartlett said it best.</p> <p><a href="http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=S1-ip47WYWc" rel="nofollow">http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=S1-ip47WYWc</a> </p> http://www.columbusunderground.com/forums/topic/jason-collins-gay/page/2#post-500380 Tue, 30 Apr 2013 19:11:57 +0000 Manatee 500380@http://www.columbusunderground.com/forums/ <p>Hahaha.</p> <p>+1 to Chris.</p> <p>That's how I feel about it. </p> http://www.columbusunderground.com/forums/topic/jason-collins-gay/page/2#post-500379 Tue, 30 Apr 2013 19:08:47 +0000 Snarf 500379@http://www.columbusunderground.com/forums/ <p>Saints, Romans, scriptures, lions and tigers...<em>oh my!</em> </p> http://www.columbusunderground.com/forums/topic/jason-collins-gay/page/2#post-500368 Tue, 30 Apr 2013 16:43:31 +0000 ChrisSunami 500368@http://www.columbusunderground.com/forums/ <blockquote><p><cite>geoyui <a href="http://www.columbusunderground.com/forums/topic/jason-collins-gay/page/2#post-500345">said</a>:</cite><br /> I've heard conflicting messages about whether the bible does or does not have passages condemning homosexuality. On fb I have a friend that mentions Romans chapter one. Can anyone verify if the bible truly condemns homosexuality?</p> </blockquote> <p>The Bible does mention homosexuality, Jesus does not. The largest portion of the Bible is the pre-Christian Scriptures retained from the Jewish tradition, i.e. the Old Testament, including the passage from Leviticus quoted by IC above. (Throughout Christian history, starting with Saint Paul, the mainstream Christian view has been that Old Testament law is not binding on followers of Christ post-Resurrection.)</p> <p>The New Testament has four books, the gospels, dealing with the actions and words of Jesus, one additional book, Acts, dealing with the actions and words of the disciples post-Resurrection, a large number of letters written by various apostles, chiefly Saint Paul (including Romans) and one prophetic dream and/or coded message (Revelations), typically attributed to the gospel-writer John.</p> <p>While it's clear that Saint Paul --one of the most important and central figures in Christianity --was deeply opposed to homosexuality, it's not nearly as clear that his few brief mentions of the topic are intended to establish a divinely inspired doctrine, versus just a statement of his own opinion.</p> <p>If you take the Gospels as the central and most important portion of the Bible, which I would argue is the proper approach for a Christian, you'll find that the nearly all of what Jesus preached revolved around a) having a personal, faith-guided relationship with God and b) being in service to other human beings, particularly the poor. The notion of Christians being obsessed with others' sexual behaviors is entirely alien to the actual gospel message. </p> http://www.columbusunderground.com/forums/topic/jason-collins-gay/page/2#post-500367 Tue, 30 Apr 2013 16:34:36 +0000 MichaelC 500367@http://www.columbusunderground.com/forums/ <p>Are we really going to play the Biblical passage game? </p> <p>Quick: let's stone all adulterers. Or pass criminal laws punishing those that are unfaithful. Or prohibit them from marrying again. </p> <p>Silly season. </p> http://www.columbusunderground.com/forums/topic/jason-collins-gay/page/2#post-500366 Tue, 30 Apr 2013 16:13:57 +0000 InnerCore 500366@http://www.columbusunderground.com/forums/ <blockquote><p><cite>Snarf <a href="http://www.columbusunderground.com/forums/topic/jason-collins-gay/page/2#post-500355">said</a>:</cite><br /> Heterosexual Christians are being unbiblical by using the clobber passages as justification for applying absolute standards of morality to homosexual “sins” that they themselves are not tempted to commit, while at the same time accepting for themselves a standard of relative morality for those sins listed in the clobber passages that they do routinely commit.</p> <p><a href="http://johnshore.com/2012/04/02/the-best-case-for-the-bible-not-condemning-homosexuality/">More.</a> </p></blockquote> <p>Here is the problem with that link and the relationship between homosexuality and religion. Basically that link argues that homosexuality is a sin, it's just not that big of a sin. That is, we are weak humans who will give in and sin from time to time. </p> <p>"I occasionally drink too much, lust or tell lies. You love someone of the same sex. We both make mistakes."</p> <p>So basically Christians have to twist themselves into pretzels just to figure out a rationalization for not gay bashing. But that doesn't change the fact that they still see homosexuality as a sin. I have seen Christians step up in defense of treating gay people harshly or any different than any other sinner. But I have yet to see any Christians step up and say that homosexuality simply isn't a sin period. </p> <p>So "hate the sin, not the sinner" is only going to go so far. Especially when it's becoming readily acceptable that people don't choose to be gay. </p> http://www.columbusunderground.com/forums/topic/jason-collins-gay/page/2#post-500354 Tue, 30 Apr 2013 15:19:50 +0000 th0m 500354@http://www.columbusunderground.com/forums/ <p>i basically read that as an explanation that people started just being like whatever and started doing all the things in craigslists ads all the time and stopped giving two shits, and i'd agree perhaps with the god mentioned that such an attitude is not cool, especially if you're so brazen about the whole thing, and while there's probably other more productive things to do perhaps </p> http://www.columbusunderground.com/forums/topic/jason-collins-gay/page/2#post-500355 Tue, 30 Apr 2013 15:19:50 +0000 Snarf 500355@http://www.columbusunderground.com/forums/ <p>Heterosexual Christians are being unbiblical by using the clobber passages as justification for applying absolute standards of morality to homosexual “sins” that they themselves are not tempted to commit, while at the same time accepting for themselves a standard of relative morality for those sins listed in the clobber passages that they do routinely commit.</p> <p><a href="http://johnshore.com/2012/04/02/the-best-case-for-the-bible-not-condemning-homosexuality/">More.</a> </p> http://www.columbusunderground.com/forums/topic/jason-collins-gay/page/2#post-500353 Tue, 30 Apr 2013 15:17:30 +0000 InnerCore 500353@http://www.columbusunderground.com/forums/ <p>And let's not forget the most eye popping one is Leviticus 20:13:</p> <p><blockquote>If a man also lie with mankind, as he lieth with a woman, both of them have committed an abomination: they shall surely be put to death; their blood shall be upon them.</blockquote></p> <p>Luckily by the time you get to the new testament they eased up on the whole put to death thing, along with the Romans passage there is 1 Corinthians 6:9-10:</p> <p><blockquote>Or do you not know that wrongdoers will not inherit the kingdom of God? Do not be deceived: Neither the sexually immoral nor idolaters nor adulterers nor men who have sex with men nor thieves nor the greedy nor drunkards nor slanderers nor swindlers will inherit the kingdom of God.</blockquote> </p> http://www.columbusunderground.com/forums/topic/jason-collins-gay/page/2#post-500352 Tue, 30 Apr 2013 15:14:15 +0000 murfmurphy 500352@http://www.columbusunderground.com/forums/ <blockquote><p><cite>Coremodels <a href="http://www.columbusunderground.com/forums/topic/jason-collins-gay/page/2#post-500350">said</a>:</cite><br /> Bear in mind, the NIV is <em>way</em> more specific about homosexuality being a sin than any version prior to 1978 in Romans. </p></blockquote> <p>I originally pulled up the the NKJV in my phone and it was pretty close. I just checked the King James version and it's pretty spot on as well. See below.</p> <p>Romans 1:27-32</p> <p>King James Version (KJV)</p> <p>27 And likewise also the men, leaving the natural use of the woman, burned in their lust one toward another; men with men working that which is unseemly, and receiving in themselves that recompence of their error which was meet.</p> <p>28 And even as they did not like to retain God in their knowledge, God gave them over to a reprobate mind, to do those things which are not convenient;</p> <p>29 Being filled with all unrighteousness, fornication, wickedness, covetousness, maliciousness; full of envy, murder, debate, deceit, malignity; whisperers,</p> <p>30 Backbiters, haters of God, despiteful, proud, boasters, inventors of evil things, disobedient to parents,</p> <p>31 Without understanding, covenantbreakers, without natural affection, implacable, unmerciful:</p> <p>32 Who knowing the judgment of God, that they which commit such things are worthy of death, not only do the same, but have pleasure in them that do them. </p> http://www.columbusunderground.com/forums/topic/jason-collins-gay/page/2#post-500350 Tue, 30 Apr 2013 15:12:05 +0000 Coremodels 500350@http://www.columbusunderground.com/forums/ <p>Bear in mind, the NIV is <em>way</em> more specific about homosexuality being a sin than any version prior to 1978 in Romans. </p> http://www.columbusunderground.com/forums/topic/jason-collins-gay/page/2#post-500349 Tue, 30 Apr 2013 15:08:24 +0000 murfmurphy 500349@http://www.columbusunderground.com/forums/ <blockquote><p><cite>geoyui <a href="http://www.columbusunderground.com/forums/topic/jason-collins-gay/page/2#post-500345">said</a>:</cite><br /> I've heard conflicting messages about whether the bible does or does not have passages condemning homosexuality. On fb I have a friend that mentions Romans chapter one. Can anyone verify if the bible truly condemns homosexuality? </p></blockquote> <p> This is the quote you mentioned below. </p> <p>Romans 1:27-32</p> <p>New International Version (NIV)</p> <p>27 In the same way the men also abandoned natural relations with women and were inflamed with lust for one another. Men committed shameful acts with other men, and received in themselves the due penalty for their error.</p> <p>28 Furthermore, just as they did not think it worthwhile to retain the knowledge of God, so God gave them over to a depraved mind, so that they do what ought not to be done. 29 They have become filled with every kind of wickedness, evil, greed and depravity. They are full of envy, murder, strife, deceit and malice. They are gossips, 30 slanderers, God-haters, insolent, arrogant and boastful; they invent ways of doing evil; they disobey their parents; 31 they have no understanding, no fidelity, no love, no mercy. 32 Although they know God’s righteous decree that those who do such things deserve death, they not only continue to do these very things but also approve of those who practice them.</p> <p>It's pretty condemning, but as others have said that judgement is left to God, not us. A lot of people should be reminded to love the sinner, but hate the sin. </p> http://www.columbusunderground.com/forums/topic/jason-collins-gay/page/2#post-500345 Tue, 30 Apr 2013 14:51:53 +0000 geoyui 500345@http://www.columbusunderground.com/forums/ <blockquote><p><cite>ChrisSunami <a href="http://www.columbusunderground.com/forums/topic/jason-collins-gay/page/2#post-500334">said</a>:</cite><br /> I find it very interesting --and I say this as a Christian who has read the entire Bible cover to cover multiple times --that people both inside and outside the faith somehow identify the rejection of homosexuality as a core Christian value despite the fact that <strong>Jesus mentioned homosexuality a grand total of zero times</strong>. </p></blockquote> <p>I've heard conflicting messages about whether the bible does or does not have passages condemning homosexuality. On fb I have a friend that mentions Romans chapter one. Can anyone verify if the bible truly condemns homosexuality? </p> http://www.columbusunderground.com/forums/topic/jason-collins-gay/page/2#post-500342 Tue, 30 Apr 2013 14:42:25 +0000 InnerCore 500342@http://www.columbusunderground.com/forums/ <blockquote><p><cite>ChrisSunami <a href="http://www.columbusunderground.com/forums/topic/jason-collins-gay/page/2#post-500334">said</a>:</cite><br /> I find it very interesting --and I say this as a Christian who has read the entire Bible cover to cover multiple times --that people both inside and outside the faith somehow identify the rejection of homosexuality as a core Christian value despite the fact that Jesus mentioned homosexuality a grand total of zero times.</p> <p>Meanwhile Jesus' repeated sermons against greed, hypocrisy, wealth, self-righteousness and being judgmental are entirely ignored. If Chris Broussard is really so concerned about following Christ, maybe he should sell all he has and donate the proceeds to the poor. </p></blockquote> <p>Aren't you then doing the same thing to Chris Broussard that he is doing to Jason Collins? Seems you're now being judgemental, self righteous and hypocritical. </p> http://www.columbusunderground.com/forums/topic/jason-collins-gay/page/2#post-500334 Tue, 30 Apr 2013 14:01:17 +0000 ChrisSunami 500334@http://www.columbusunderground.com/forums/ <p>I find it very interesting --and I say this as a Christian who has read the entire Bible cover to cover multiple times --that people both inside and outside the faith somehow identify the rejection of homosexuality as a core Christian value despite the fact that Jesus mentioned homosexuality a grand total of zero times.</p> <p>Meanwhile Jesus' repeated sermons against greed, hypocrisy, wealth, self-righteousness and being judgmental are entirely ignored. If Chris Broussard is really so concerned about following Christ, maybe he should sell all he has and donate the proceeds to the poor. </p>