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Very interesting article in today’s Dispatch about a new study being conducted in the historic area of Dublin. The study will assess the possibility of redeveloping the location into a more modern “Downtown”, complete with new urban residences and pedestrian-friendly walkability.
Terry Foegler, the City Manager of Dublin seems to understand that these types of amenities currently don’t exist anywhere in his city, but it sounds as if they’ve got quite the uphill battle in front of them for a major reconversion like this. The BriHi development has started to move the area in the right direction, but the noisy high-speed crossing of 161/33 through the middle of this area will need quite a bit of pedestrian-friendly improvements to make it more accommodating to anything other than just the rush of automobile traffic.
If other suburban areas can build more densely though, there’s no reason Dublin can’t. Gahanna has had a bit of a rocky start with their new Creekside development, but that opening also aligned with the housing market crash and national recession. Grandview and Bexley have both been growing their Downtown areas in a similar fashion for several years now, with mixed results. Grove City also has similar plans on the table for an urbanized upgrade to their historic core.
Is this type of makeover in the cards for historic Dublin? Will it have the same appeal as existing options in Bexley, or even the Short North? Would anyone here be interested in living in this type of new urban development?
Considering Dublin’s comparably vast resources (250K on a study for a city that size? Wow.) I am fairly confident that they could create a national model for suburban downtowns. (But isn’t Dublin known for being density averse?) Even if you’re not a fan of the current Dublin product on the ground, you have to give it to them because they do what they do very well. (Bridges, roundabouts, golf courses, etc.) They just haven’t tried to build a downtown yet.
(By the way- have any of you been to Clayton, Missouri outside of St. Louis? I thought Clayton (12,000 pop.)’s suburban downtown felt more vibrant than many big core cities and has a great sidewalk/ped night scene. Yep. Dublin could do that if it’s brave enough.
I was about to make some snarky comments, but I guess I have to ask a question first. Does anyone know what the real estate situation is around Easton? They mentioned Creekside’s struggles in Gahanna. I agree with Kyle that Dublin could certainly built it, but I’m not sure that there is a demand. It seems like the group that can afford new housing AND wants suburban surroundings AND wants walkable neighborhoods is already overserved in the metro area.
I see that there is a population that wants to live in an exurban “downtown.” That isn’t something I would want for myself, because I have “weird” ideas about authenticity and sense of place, but I am all for any kind of density if it works and if it won’t be empty and wasteful once it is built.
I’m trying to figure out what else they’d do “downtown”. They’re already revamping bridge and high with new commercial space. I still think the name BriHi needs to go but that’s probably the developers’ call, not the city.
There’s a plan for “new urbanist” commercial space and condos at Monterey and Bridge, as well as an extension to the cemetery.
High street, itself, has little room for change without tearing down historic homes and businesses. So that leaves the old Dubin Cardinal Food / Carfagna’s plaza on Riverside drive. There was some proposal on the city’s website at one point where they had talked about moving Riverside Dr to the East (through what’s now the plaza) and turning that area between what’s now Riverside and the Scioto into park and event space with a pedestrian bridge going across the river.
So what’s left? As one of the few young residents of old Dublin, I love my area but I’m a little baffled as to what else they think they could do. Ohh, and it will NEVER be the Short North. That’s just a bad comparison. It needs to stay true to its historic character and not try to be something else. IE – Stay true to itself. Otherwise, it will feel like Creekside, which feels very “corporate” to me.
Sandor17 Says: I agree with Kyle that Dublin could certainly built it, but I’m not sure that there is a demand. It seems like the group that can afford new housing AND wants suburban surroundings AND wants walkable neighborhoods is already overserved in the metro area.
While some of these types of similar developments in Gahanna, Bexley, and Grandview have had a mixed amount of success, I think it’s largely due in part to the housing market conditions of the past few years, and not necessarily a lack of demand.
(Warning – I’m about to speak using a lot of generalities. These overviews are not necessarily an all-inclusive look at the entire population.)
Generally, these types of urban-style developments in suburban settings are proposed to appeal to both YPs and Empty Nesters, but they seem to always end up executed in a high-end fashion, so that they really only appeal to the richer Empty Nesters and not the less wealthy YPs.
When you look at an Empty Nester living in one of these neighborhoods who wants to move into an urban condo development in their respective suburb’s new “Downtown”, the first thing they have to do is sell their old house. And the problem right now is that the market is saturated. In order for the Nesters to downgrade to that 1500sqft 2br brand new upscale condo, they’ve got to unload their 3000sqft 4br 20-30 year old home. And no one is biting.
So the demand might theoretically still be there, but it’s unable to be fully realized. I think that will gradually change as we start to come out of the recession and the housing market starts to return to something resembling normality.
On the flip side, if this project in Dublin is ACTUALLY built in an affordable fashion and targeted to YPs, I think they’ll see better success for a development in the next 3-5 years. But… I just don’t see them wanting to offer units for less than $250k. Partly because it’s hard to build something of high quality for so cheap, and partly because “YUCK! Who wants to live next to someone who can only afford a $150k condo?”
I give Dublin, along with other suburbs like Grove City and Hilliard some credit. At least they’re planning to be viable in 15 years time — as somewhat walkable retirement communities. Some folks, particularly aging baby boomers, might be impressed, but I seriously doubt if too many people under 40 are really going to care one way or another about johnny-come-lately attempts to retrofit car-dependent suburbs. Why settle for an overpriced mere imitation when you can have the overpriced real thing, long established in the heart of Columbus?
I think the biggest obstacle to Dublin’s downtown is State Route 161. It’s probably not much wider than High St. in the Short North(north of Hubbard) but it sure feels like a freeway.
Yes, a downtown Dublin’s biggest problem is the 161/33 traffic on high. Anytime I go to one of their “old Dublin” festivals or activities it is always a pain to have such a major intersection right in the middle of everything. Unless they divert traffic or build pedestrian bridges, I don’t know how they can improve this.
Hilliard’s “old town/downtown” is slightly north of their major intersection and is much better laid out in my opinion.
I could see a big market for an expanded downtown Dublin if they make it exciting. There are probably lots of younger families who moved to Dublin or some other burb because they wanted to send their kids to the schools but ended up in suburbia hell which they accepted as a compromise. A dense environment with ample parks nearby is a good recipie for a younger family crowd.
Walker, I agree with you. They always image and position these places to be YP-friendly, with YP amenities, and then price it for single business executives and empty nesters. Currently, you can buy condos near the area for $125k – $130k.
Neo, Old Dublin already is “walkable”. That’s the thing. Walkscore gives it an 82 just where I live. My view is, I’m not sure what else they’re going to do. There’s no room.
I think this survey is really an attempt to maximize developer benefit so they can get the most money out of the area. I’ve talked with a few developers in Dublin and they’re all saying they refuse to build outside any “urban cores” right now because there’s no money in it. IE – Tartan Fields, etc.
We have stores in Worthington, Grandview, and Gahanna, so we are able to see the difference between established downtowns at the core of a community that supports it (Worthington and Grandview) and an unsuccessful attempt to create the same thing where it didn’t exist before (in Gahanna).
Its worth noting that we closed our Gahanna store last week, and are efforting to move it to either Dublin, Powell or Westerville as soon as possible. We want to be a part of downtowns that are committed to being the place where the people in that community spend their time and money, and Dublin is partly there now and headed in the right direction. The fact that they commissioned the study and the conversation is ongoing makes it an attractive place to open a new business.
@Walker – +1 on having a range of price options is key. Gahanna and Grandview are both cautionary tales for condo prices that are out of context with the surrounding neighborhood.
thecandlelab Says: We want to be a part of downtowns that are committed to being the place where the people in that community spend their time and money…
Perhaps a Downtown Columbus location in the not too distant future? ;) Not sure how well your business model would fit in the core of the CBD, but perhaps there may be a good retail fit there sooner or later.
That is the next step. Our plan has always been four stores in central Ohio, and after we open a NW location, the downtown/SN location is the final step.
I grew up in Pickerington, when Eastland Mall was in its heydey. Then it got shady and City Center was the cool place to be, and then it died. Its increasingly clear to us that building newer and better malls is a losing proposition. We are committed to putting our stores in places where we can be part of the effort to build viable downtowns at the heart of local communities.
Downtown Columbus is the final step in the process. I wish we could be there now, but a saturation of candle shops in the SN and a couple prime spots in Dublin and Powell have put this on hold for now. We applaud the business owners who are reinventing downtown Columbus, and are excited to join their ranks as soon as we possibly can.
It’s interesting to see that Dublin is now recognizing the need for walkable town centers outside of downtown Columbus, but Columbus isn’t. Who would have expected Dublin to be the more progressive city?
The Dispatch article mentioned that the Dublin Village Center is part of the study. I think it and all the land surrounding it provides a huge opportunity to urbanize.
johnwirtz Says: It’s interesting to see that Dublin is now recognizing the need for walkable town centers outside of downtown Columbus, but Columbus isn’t.
I’m not sure if the examples in your linked articles are apples & oranges to what Dublin is studying here. Similar unwalkable developments can be found all over Dublin to compare to some of the more urban Columbus developments if you want “columbusite” things in the other direction.
There’s no doubt that Dublin is currently mostly sprawl, but I’m happy to see them talking about a “downtown.” If Dublin built a downtown, I would consider living in Dublin. That’s not something I could have said yesterday.
I’m just saying that I’m disappointed Columbus isn’t talking about the same thing for the Hayden Run corridor or Hamilton & 161, to use the two examples from your interview.
I don’t know. It’s seems like there could be a market for it. Young people like us who desire a more urban feel without the drawbacks. I love the urban neighborhoods of Columbus but it would be nice if you could get a similar feel (albeit a manufactured one) without the crime and poor schools. I don’t feel inner city Columbus has reached a point yet where one can feasibly be comfortable raising a family in. Stating the obvious, it’s why so many move to the suburbs and Delaware county.
mstimple Says: I don’t feel inner city Columbus has reached a point yet where one can feasibly be comfortable raising a family in.
I think you meant to say “I” instead of “one”. Because I know plenty of “ones” who are plenty comfortable.
Dublin hopes to grow up to be Naperville IL.
More info here: http://www.dublin.oh.us/bridgestreet/index.php
Buyer has a vision for Dublin center
Saturday, November 14, 2009 3:12 AM
BY MARLA MATZER ROSE
THE COLUMBUS DISPATCH
The underutilized 49-acre retail expanse known as the Dublin Village Center could one day become a bustling development with stores, offices and housing. At least that’s what the center’s new owners and the city of Dublin hope.
A step in that direction was taken last week when the center, near Sawmill Road and I-270, was purchased for $4.7 million by Whittingham Capital, an affiliate of Dublin-based Stavroff Land & Development.
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