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What started a year ago with rumors of a new Northstar location in Grandview has recently come full circle to reveal that Northstar-owners Kevin and Katy Malhame were opening a new venture called Third and Hollywood. After a quiet soft opening, they were met with a pretty critical eye both from food reviewers who had ventured in, as well as many who had not yet tried the place.
I recently sat down with Kevin to discuss their new restaurant, and give him a chance to share his thoughts on their menu, ingredients, location, and prices.
Walker Evans: Thanks for taking the time to sit down and chat with us today. Originally, this location started with rumors of a new Grandview Northstar Cafe. Can you tell us a bit about the leadup to Third and Hollywood?
Kevin Malhame: Well, before we opened the first Northstar, my wife and I were both restaurant managers and we were making a comfortable combined income. But it’s very physically exhausting work. We started to think that it was a little strange that we could both work so hard, so often, and not really be proud of what we’re contributing to our community.
Thankfully, we were naive enough when we strarted Northstar to think that we could very easily create a restaurant where we could manage the mechanics and simple stuff well enough for it to be successful, and also shape a system of values, and be very a values-oriented company and accomplish some other good things. Such as making relatively nutriotious food with great available ingredents, and trying to be great environmental stewards. Since the very beginning we’ve been really involved with the Ohio Ecological Food and Farm Association. It’s an organization that I really believe in. It’s at the very core of sustainable farming and local foods, and this organization teaches family farmers how to transition into a method of farming that might enable them to be more successful while using organic practices.
Originally, my wife and I used to live in Grandview about two blocks from here for five or six years and we still love this neighborhood. The landlord for this building recognized that the business that was previously here wasn’t going to last too much longer. They approached us and asked if we’d be interested in opening a Northstar Cafe.
Once we started evaluating this space, we realized that it was a little small for the Northstar format. The space has always felt good as a bar and grill. It was Gibby’s for about 13 years. So I didn’t feel great about turning it into a Northstar. After awhile we started to get the idea that we could open something up a little more formal and satisfy our red meat cravings. Sort of our take on a classic American bar and grill. In the end, the real lynchpin for us was the neighborhood being Grandview.
WE: It sounds like you’re carrying the same values over from your Northstar operations, but the menu looks completely different. Can you tell us about some of the featured items and where they come from.
KM: Sure. I think our mussels are a good place to start. They have the potential to be a really fun casual bar food, but it ultimately depends on the quality of the mussels. Where they came from, and how long they’ve been handled. Most restaurants serve PEI mussels, which used to have a reputation for being good high-end mussels, but they’re totally industrialized and raised on mussel farms. So we usually end up paying twice as much for our mussels and get them FedExed from a place up in the Pacific Northwest. They’re usually really good, but they can sometimes be a little inconsistent this time of year. So on Friday we’re getting our first shipment from a fishmonger who is going to be shipping them to us direct from this small farm off the coast of Maine. For these mussels we’re paying another 25% more, so it starts to make a little more sense when you look at this price and think “$14 or a pound of mussels?” I’m sure the price might enrage some of the people reading this, but I think many will appreciate the quality.
WE: Yeah, a lot of the harsher criticism I’ve read so far comes directly from the prices.
KM: Well, the thing that really gets me excited and makes me want to talk is related to local foods and what can be argued as a fair price for those foods. Conventionally produced industrial foods are not cheap foods. They’re inexpensive to purchase, and as a restaurant we could buy them and it would be less expensive for us, but for society they’re incredibly expensive. There are longer-term health problems and environmental problems that go with those types of foods. Society basically absorbs the cost of an industrial food system, and that is not at all good for any of us. As a business we’re making the decision to support as many food producers as we can that are doing things responsibly and actually not contributing to the problems related to industrial agriculture,
We actually separate on our profit and loss statements how much money we spend on foods that are really consistent with our values and the foods that more mainstream. Even in that mainstream category, we have things like olive oil that we use instead of chemically extracted corn oil. They’re still expensive high-quality ingredients. We use all olive oils in our salad dressings, which is remarkable. There’s few restaurants in town who don’t use like a 90/10 blend and mix just a small bit of olive oil in with some bland vegetable oil because it’s much cheaper. It still ends up tasting fine, but I just don’t want to put that in my body every day.
So when you look at our salad prices and say “Wow, can there really be such a thing as a $19 salad?” all you can do is try it and decide for yourself. But the perception that we are wildly overcharging for food and enjoying markups that are greater than industry norms is actually quite the opposite. We really suffer because of the values-oriented ingredient purchasing. Our food costs typically hover around 35 to 40 percent, which is typically not a healthy range for a restaurant. Normally you want your food costs to be around 30 percent or below.
It’s also worth noting that there’s a lot of extra time that goes into our purchasing. To purchase for a normal restaurant, you’re calling one meat purveyor, one produce company, and maybe one grocery company like Sysco. Instead, we work with 20-30 purveyors on a weekly basis. We get our beef from one guy, one guy who brings us herbs, one guy who brings us salad greens, and so forth. With some of those produce relationships, you’re having a conversation with the grower in January about the seeds they need to buy from their seed catalog so that in June they can harvest it and sell it to us. It’s a lot different that just calling the produce company at 11 o’clock at night and just getting whatever you want the next morning.
At the end of the day, I just want people to come check the place out and eat the food and give it a chance.
WE: Fair enough. Personally, I think it does help to explain the prices when more of these types of details are provided with some of the ingedients and procedures that go on behind the scenes.
Well, I get more and more uncomfortable with saying anything about the ingredients because I feel like it makes us look like every other grocery store container that tries to tell you how great they are and how good for you they are. For the first four years at Northstar we never had the words “local” or “organic” anywhere on our menu. Eventually we added them because some people didn’t know, and some people were missing that, and we figure that it was probably hurting us to not let people know. Especially since our prices have risen. Since we’ve opened, organic foods have really outpaced inflation dramatically.
WE: I have to say that I was actually surprised to hear that you were starting another restaurant concept. I can easily see Northstar becoming a huge chain concept that spreads like wildfire all across the US.
KM: Well, it would be nice to have the $100 million dollars that would go along with that, but I don’t like the compromises that companies like that have to make along the way to grow at that speed. Growth for us at this point is mostly about attracting and retaining the talented people who come to the company who want to make more money next year than they did this year and want more opportunities and responsibility. Those types of people create enormous pressure for me to keep things moving forward responsibly. I don’t want them to get bored or tired with the business.
WE: So that means we won’t be seeing a Northstar Polaris location opening up anytime soon?
KM: We kind of have this unwritten guideline that if there’s not a sidewalk that leads to the front door that lets you get from home to the restaurant, then it’s probably not a good site for us. I say that now and will probably jinx myself… but that’s really the idea. We want to be a part of real neighborhoods. It makes business sense too, because who knows what the heck is going to happen at Polaris 10 years from now.
When we undertake a project like this, our hope is to be a genuinely loved restaurant 10 years from now. That’s why our tabletops are 2 1/2 inch thick butcher blocks, and our booths are Italian full-grain leather that’s going to last. The idea is to build a place that will last and be warm and cozy for a long time to come.
WE: Any final thoughts that you want to leave the readers of Columbus Underground with?
KM: I would strongly recommend anyone interested in the subject of sustainable food to read either of Michael Pollan’s two most recent books, The Omnivore’s Dilemma and In Defense of Food. He does a much better job of breaking it down than anyone else could, and in a real enjoyable readable way.
WE: Great. Thanks for taking the time to talk with us today.
KM: No problem.
More information can be found online at ThirdAndHollywood.com.
I’ve been Third and Hollywood twice. Aside, from the name, which I have a serious struggle with – I loved everything about the place.
Just sitting in the place you can see the intense discipline that went into the design. The food and drinks were outstanding. The service at all their places is always impeccable.
I’ve seen people bitching about the food prices here in other threads and I’m not sure I get it. The prices are in-line with North Star and not much further off. I feel like it’s relatively proportionate for the quality of the food and dining experience.
My only advice if you are going to pour popular wines that everyone knows the prices of like the Ramey Claret, a $14 pour is way outta line compared with the rest of the market and it’s gonna show. Not to mention it looks like you’re gouging.
JonMyers Says: I’ve seen people bitching about the food prices here in other threads and I’m not sure I get it.
Me either. There have been a few Slow Food events that I have wanted to attend, but have quietly decided not to because of the pricetag. I’m sure I’m not alone in that sentiment, but I’ve never seen anyone go out of their way to complain about those event prices, and they sound like they carry very similar values to the folks behind Northstar/Third&Hollywood.
@Walker – agreed, good value and good business values can cost more to support.
I hadn’t heard anything about Third and Hollywood yet, and I have to admit that if I had just heard the name I probably wouldn’t have given it a second thought. However, this interview was a great way to get me excited to to try the restaurant. I could see how Kevin and Katy may have worried that marketing it as a restaurant that uses local and/or organic ingredients could take away from the overall atmosphere or purpose (could be construed as greenwashing, or not so sincere if you don’t understand what goes into that promise, etc.) But learning that the owners believe in the importance of being part of a real community and that they go out of their way to work in the local and organic food economy is really important. This interview was a great way to get the word out, thanks.
There’s nothing local about a 19.00 tuna salad, unless those are Scioto River tuna.
JonMyers Says: I’ve seen people bitching about the food prices here in other threads and I’m not sure I get it.
Walker Says:
Me either. There have been a few Slow Food events that I have wanted to attend, but have quietly decided not to because of the pricetag. I’m sure I’m not alone in that sentiment, but I’ve never seen anyone go out of their way to complain about those event prices, and they sound like they carry very similar values to the folks behind Northstar/Third&Hollywood.
There have been two Slow Food events for which, I’d say, the price is higher than what one might have anticipated based solely on food costs — the fall dinner at Flying J Farm and the spring Cubano pig roast. Both were conceived of as fundraisers, and even so we tried to keep the price tag well below the $150-and-up fundraiser level that we’ve seen at other events.
As to the other events, they’re a mix. You’re right, Walker, that the food values (good, clean, fair) are similar to those espoused by Kevin in the interview and elsewhere. And some of the prices are fairly high… but we try to make sure that for the higher-priced events, the cost is justified. The Wayward Seed dinner at La Tavola, for example, was $65 for members, $75 for nonmembers… but that included seven courses, and the price included tax and tip. And they’re not all that expensive, either — the inaugural dinner was a pretty remarkable value, four courses, $37 all inclusive. (Not to mention the low-cost and free events — potlucks, berry picking, morel hunting, two coffee-roasting seminars….)
Anyway, I digress. It’s a longer story than anyone wants to read here, but a lot of people in Slow Food are very aware of, and interested in minimizing, the additional costs involved in putting good food on the table, whenever possible. If that’s the philosophy behind Third and Hollywood, I welcome it.
I particularly liked Kevin’s litmus test of sidewalk accessibility.
I’d actually like to visit this new restaurant but those prices are a real barrier. I admire the desire to use better food providers. This is important to me and I do consider it when choosing a place to eat.
Slow Food’s events really do span a wide range of price points that reflect an attempt to provide something for all of it’s member’s budgets. Often the ‘one-off’ nature of the events means that the costs associated with the meals can’t factor in the economy of scale that restaurants enjoy. For that reason, as well as many others related to the obvious differences between a restaurant and a non-profit, it’s kind of an apples to oranges comparison.
The questions related to 3&H’s prices relative to it’s competition strike me as being far more complicated. 3&H, simply put, isn’t the only restaurant in town operating under the ethic they’ve laid out for themselves. While Kevin Malhame would love to cultivate a favorable contrast by pointing out how 3&H would compare to, say, a Cameron Mitchell operation, at the prices he’s selling food at he really needs to be compared to someplace like Alana’s.
When framed like that, the whole proposition becomes pretty iffy to me.
It’s tough, though – one one hand, it’d be nice to think that a restaurant could profit handsomely from simple preparations of high quality food, but OTOH it’s a shame that everything about the restaurant cultivates the notion that simple quality food is expensive and part of a lifestyle that inherently excludes an awful lot of people.
From my perspective, 3&H is a bit offputting because of how emphatically it underscores the latter point.
Roland Says: I’d actually like to visit this new restaurant but those prices are a real barrier.
This confuses me. There are menu options priced where you can easily try the place out for less than $25 after tip.
It might not be an everyday experience, but I was under the impression that you have spent more money than that on dinner elsewhere.
Another great interview.
I really appreciate their approach to food.
I’m a big fan of Pollan and Mark Bittman, and I think it’s great to see people taking that approach to food and making it work in the real world.
It’s nothing particularly radical, it’s just taking the time and effort to make sure that you’re respecting the earth, your body, and your customer’s health when making food choices.
Hopefully we can get to a point where that kind of food and preparation isn’t exclusive to a particular socio-economic group, but I’ve no doubt that Kevin and Katy are doing their best to price items as fairly as they can and still run a profitable business.
Looking forward to checking the new place out.
Walker – price and value aren’t the same thing. I had a 3 course meal at Alana’s this past weekend for $25. It’s not impossible that the same $25 spent at 3&H would yield the same value, but it’s not easy to reach that conclusion by looking at the menu or from reading the reviews thus far.
Still, I’ll probably check the place out sometime.
Bear Says: A lot of people in Slow Food are very aware of, and interested in minimizing, the additional costs involved in putting good food on the table, whenever possible. If that’s the philosophy behind Third and Hollywood, I welcome it.
Yeah, don’t get me wrong… I’m aware of the free and the inexpensive Slow Food events. The only reason I brought it up was to compare the similar values I’m hearing behind Slow Food and what Kevin was talking about.
drew Says: It’s kind of an apples to oranges comparison.
Sure, the experiences are different, but I think the values are very similar. I brought it up as an example though because of the vastly differing reactions between the two.
drew Says: At the prices he’s selling food at he really needs to be compared to someplace like Alana’s.
I agree that a comparison to Alana’s would probably be about as apples-to-apples as you could probably get. And aside from some of T&H’s meat-laden salads, their menu prices don’t look drastically different to me.
drew Says: It’s a shame that everything about the restaurant cultivates the notion that simple quality food is expensive and part of a lifestyle that inherently excludes an awful lot of people. From my perspective, 3&H is a bit offputting because of how emphatically it underscores the latter point.
I don’t know if I jumped to that same conclusion after reading, but your perspective is your perspective. I’m not really trying to change anyone’s minds here. Just trying to wrap my head around some of the logic being used here.
drew Says: Walker – price and value aren’t the same thing.
Sure, but Roland said the price was the barrier, not that the value was a barrier.
drew Says: it’s not easy to reach that conclusion by looking at the menu or from reading the reviews thus far.
Well, I’ve only read one review so far from Andrew Hall, unless I’m forgetting someone else, but it appeared as if everyone else was reviewing without trying. And no offense to Andrew, but he’s got to be one of the harshest critics around, so I usually try to take what he has to say with an expensive grain of artisan sea salt. ;)
It’d be nice if they had a menu online. I remember the old Northstar website being that way for a few years, just a temp page with their address and phone number.
You can find their menu here:
http://www.columbusunderground.com/forums/topic/rumor-mill-northstar-in-grandview#post-202988
Walker – re: “Just trying to wrap my head around some of the logic being used here.”
…the *perceived* difference is that on one hand you’re getting the results of an accomplished chef who is constantly providing new, innovative, and labor intensive dishes using the best available ingredients while on the other hand you’re getting… a basic pork chop on a plate that is marked up a lot just because the pig it came from was hugged to death.
That may be overstating it to emphasize the point, but that seems to be the general gist of the perception (if not reality…) gap.
Northstar has been wildly successful in developing some great dishes that they can pump out quickly and easily. They ask a premium, but they get it because of the desire for fast-casual alternatives to less healthy, flavorful, and ethically ‘clean’ fare. They have very little competition doing what they do at that price.
At the prices that 3&H command, though, it’s a whole different ball game – the simple emphasis on the quality of ingredients isn’t quite the profound differentiator they’d seem to like for it to be. There may be more to them than that, but it isn’t apparent to the outside observer.
Nor was it to Andrew Hall. While I can kind of understand your reluctance to lean too heavily on AH’s review, he really is a sharp observer of such things – he may not be overly effusive about his likes, but he’s rarely unfair about his dislikes. As you may recall, he has been a staunch defender of Northstar, so it’s not like he has an ax to grind.
And, really, I don’t either. I went to see Kevin Malhame speak at Wild Goose. He’s a sharp guy – good businessman, smart on the subject of food ethics, obviously trying to merge the two. I don’t begrudge him his success, but I just can’t quite wrap my head around what he’s doing with 3&H or how it occupies a useful and competitive place in the restaurant market.
That said, I’ll check it out sometime soon and let you know if my point of view changes.
Walker Says:
June 30th, 2009 at 1:16 pm
Just trying to wrap my head around some of the logic being used here.
Fair enough.
For what it’s worth, we’ve actually had restaurant partners propose events that we ended up turning down or canceling — not because of the price, but because of the value. I do think that’s more what’s at issue here.
And Kevin’s statement that their food costs run 35-40% of their total costs helps address the value question… but that 35-40% is really jaw-dropping. For one thing, Kevin’s a hell of a shrewd businessman, so I’m sure he’s got a handle on this, but I’m surprised that food costs that high are sustainable in the long run. For another, you can back the retail food costs out of that (admittedly, quite roughly), but even allowing a fair margin for error, that implies some staggering food costs.
I hear people say that North Star and 3&H are selling a “lifestyle” and have never bought it. You might think they are inferring a certain lifestyle, but if so it’s certainly never mentioned in their restaurants.
In order for them to sell a lifestyle they would have to take a position on their menus and in their restaurants and discuss the philosophy and values behind their ingredients, foods and workplace that’s been cultivated. I’ve never seen that happen. For better or worse, it’s a very dining agnostic experience for me. The good part is you can take grandma there on the weekends and she might cut-loose on her first veggie burger ever and the main thing is you don’t have to explain a lifestyle/ philosophy. The bad part is it might look like you don’t stand for anything, which is why I think you see people bitching about price all the time.
Regarding 3&H though, based on the intensity and detail of that interior space I would venture to guess they are selling first and foremost an experience and not just selling simple quality food.
I would be much more forgiving if they listed on the menu exactly what purveyors of food they are working with:
http://www.casanueva.com/producers/index.html
hmmm. hopefully they will consider the following with this restaurant:
1. not laying people off after working there a considerable amount of time in order to pay new employees less. (3 friends effected)
2. maybe using buns that are organic not sysco. Correct me if I’m wrong about this one.
3. making food with no glass please.
That’d be great.
Thanks!