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Cleveland Plain Dealer wrote
Cleveland-Cincinnati passenger rail service plan gets boost from Congress
December 04, 2008
Karen Farkas
Passenger rail service from Cleveland to Cincinnati could be a reality by 2010 if the state gets $100 million in proposed infrastructure stimulus money. The Ohio Rail Development Commission also intends to apply next year for federal matching grants from a passenger rail bill passed by Congress this fall.
“I’m cautiously ecstatic,” said Stu Nicholson, spokesman for the commission, who envisions two trains making a round trip each day. “The money is the game changer. It changed the whole dynamic.”
The commission, an independent agency within the Ohio Department of Transportation, has long advocated the 3-C Corridor between Cleveland, Columbus and Cincinnati. It also advocates the more ambitious and expensive Ohio Hub, a high-speed rail system on seven corridors in the state. Some $200 million is being sought to design and plan the high-speed network.
“The Amtrak planning staff told us that the corridor is probably the best underdeveloped passenger rail corridor in the U.S.,” Nicholson said.
Related Stories:
- Passenger Rail is on the right track for comeback
- Passenger Rail Act passes US House
http://www.upi.com/Business_News/2008/12/07/China_completing_high-speed_rail_line/UPI-18731228674706/
Just wait for the naysayers to come along and find something that can go wrong…
Well, in China they have less trouble with “naysayers”. :(
I’m personally glad on many levels that I probably won’t have to wait long to hear from a dissenting point of view.
http://www.upi.com/Business_News/2008/12/07/China_completing_high-speed_rail_line/UPI-18731228674706/
Just wait for the naysayers to come along and find something that can go wrong…
Well, in China they have less trouble with “naysayers”. :(
I’m personally glad on many levels that I probably won’t have to wait long to hear from a dissenting point of view.
I’m speaking from the CU perspective. It’s great to have the dissent, but every time we have a good, positive thread about a progressive change to infrastructure in OH/Columbus someone loves to come along and piss in everyone’s Wheaties.
I’m speaking from the CU perspective. It’s great to have the dissent, but every time we have a good, positive thread about a progressive change to infrastructure in OH/Columbus someone loves to come along and piss in everyone’s Wheaties.
I hear ya. Frankly, I think a little piss is good for the wheaties. debating ‘progressive change’ is one thing, but sometimes folks get so wrapped up in what they and others in/near the same walk of life think is the best idea that they forget others have completely different needs. Its not malice or stupidity, it’s just human nature.
For example, I cannot always ride a bike ’cause of my physical limitations, so (as a very extreme example) replacing all the roads with bike trails would be an utter disaster for me, but I’m betting others here might call it “progressive change”.
Trains are something I think most people will agree on. The worst that usually ends up being said is “people won’t take it because flying is faster”, which is easily countered by mentioning that the train I took last week was packed and we I couldn’t sit together for several hours until some folks got off and we had a minute to move chairs before it filled up again and other couples couldn’t sit together (someone got all mad… it was cute). There is clearly a ready market for Amtrak service.
If we’re just talking about the 3C connector, I think many would say driving from Columbus to Cleveland or Cincinnati would be faster, and in many instances they’d probably be right. Especially if their goal is not to get downtown but to a suburban location in any of those cities and not have to worry about bussing or renting a car when they arrive.
But I can see the convenience of not having to drive being a huge appeal for many. And I can see the holidays or busy weekends making the train trip faster than by car.
If we’re just talking about the 3C connector, I think many would say driving from Columbus to Cleveland or Cincinnati would be faster, and in many instances they’d probably be right. Especially if their goal is not to get downtown but to a suburban location in any of those cities and not have to worry about bussing or renting a car when they arrive.
But I can see the convenience of not having to drive being a huge appeal for many. And I can see the holidays or busy weekends making the train trip faster than by car.
I think the park and ride stations in “North Columbus,” “North Cincinnati,” and “Cleveland Hopkins” could help with some of the travel time issues for suburbanites:
http://www2.dot.state.oh.us/ohiorail/Ohio%20Hub/Website/ordc/maps.html
I can see this line being really great for sporting and other special events. The Indians, Reds, Browns, Bengals, Cavs, Blue Jackets, Clippers, and Dragons should all be within walking distance of stations. If they were to put in a station at 17th Ave (not shown on map), it would serve the Crew, the Ohio State Fair, and OSU too. After all, the existing COTA park and ride for OSU football is at the Fairgrounds. So park the car, go to the game, have a good time, sober up on the train ride back, and don’t endanger anyone else by driving.
Sure, it works well for major sporting events, or for those specific burbs. I’m talking more about for the person who lives in a Columbus burb that doesn’t have a train station heading to a Cleveland burb without a train station. Is it worthwhile for them?
Not to piss too much in the wheaties though. Train travel isn’t for everyone. But I think the 3C configuration will be able to serve the largest numbers of the Ohio population most effectively.
But I can see the convenience of not having to drive being a huge appeal for many. And I can see the holidays or busy weekends making the train trip faster than by car.
I think the convenience was a huge part of why I took a 13 hour train instead of an 8 hour drive over the holiday. And safety. Sometimes driving over the mountains is dicey if the weather is bad. Apparently a lot of other people had the same notion ’cause that darned train was full!
We met some very nice folks in the dining car over dinner, too. It was fun.
That speaks more to the need for good last-mile transit services. Or taxi services.
Streetcars anyone?
RM,
I’m looking more at the same arguments that get rehashed in every thread like this, despite the 25 other pages on the same argument.
I hear you though about differing opinions and they are great to help find a balanced approach. It’s just the “I don’t like this so here is some random wikipedia quote offering a wild hypothetical that could make this fail in Columbus” that lends nothing and is not constructive.
There are a lot of benefits to this system.
If it goes high speed between the 4 metro areas, it opens up a world of possibility for our state. Someone looking for work in Columbus could go to the Cleveland or Cincinnati classifieds find work and have a commute time comparable to Marysville-Columbus or Lancaster-Columbus. Keep the family in town, same schools, same house and find work.
Seems that they are going to work to connect the line to regional airports, which is needed here and elsewhere.
Opens up opportunities to students. Go to class 3 days a week in Cleveland and intern in Columbus at the Statehouse 2 days a week.
Amtrak could come back for us.
Can’t wait. :D
If it goes high speed between the 4 metro areas, it opens up a world of possibility for our state.
Keep in mind even “normal speed” rail still operates 100+ mph on flat straight track. That’s easily doable here. I recorded a speed of 126 on a normal train in Jersey a few months ago. Even on “not so flat, not so straight” tracks we were doing over 80 in Virginia last week. Passing lines of cars on the highways.
Not to piss too much in the wheaties though. Train travel isn’t for everyone. But I think the 3C configuration will be able to serve the largest numbers of the Ohio population most effectively.
It’s a good question. How involved are transit orgs like COTA going to be in this? With enough support, they may be able to run a 3-C express line that could serve some of the burbs and bring them into the rail station.
If this goes down, provided the city communicates it well, it could be the catalyst for us here in Columbus to start seeing the other projects.
A statewide passenger rail service is way beyond the capabilities of COTA or any local transit authority. For one thing, they cannot operate outside of their taxing district. But what they do well is provide those “last mile” connections (as Walker pointed out) and that’s where coordinating passenger rail and local transit will be critical
The ridership study about to be done by Amtrak will likely determine the station stops. Most cities will have at least one or two suburban stops, but nothing is certain until after the study is done sometime late next summer (2009).
Rockmastermike brings up a good point; Traveling by train isn’t always about getting there faster than one can drive. It’s about having time to chill on board and not worry about the weather. It’s about having productive time on board if your traveling on business. What’s being planned in Ohio will certainly be competitive with the car, but that’s not the only draw for riders.
That’s more where I was going. Not that COTA would run service on 3C, but how would it work in relation to a state rail line? Moving people within the city and connecting to the tracks.
That does bring an interesting question. Would it be possible for a city to operate a commuter rail line on the existing 3C tracks, once built. For the sake of argument, if their 2 suburban stops in Columbus were Grove City and Powell, would such service be possible from those locations to the station downtown?
That’s more where I was going. Not that COTA would run service on 3C, but how would it work in relation to a state rail line? Moving people within the city and connecting to the tracks.
That does bring an interesting question. Would it be possible for a city to operate a commuter rail line on the existing 3C tracks, once built. For the sake of argument, if their 2 suburban stops in Columbus were Grove City and Powell, would such service be possible from those locations to the station downtown?
The line to Dayton doesn’t go through Grove City, but I see where you’re going with this. Ultimately, it would depend on track-sharing arrangements with the host railroad, and therefore how much freight is using the line. From a ridership perspective though, I don’t see a one-stop commuter shuttle to downtown working all that well. I could be wrong though.
I just hope that we can get a station that looks as awe imspiring as Grand central in NY because thats what it will be according to the maps. The very center of it all .. Truely Grand Central
I actually don’t think that track-sharing arrangements would be too hard to coordinate, assuming the local and intercity services were using the same width of track, because I almost never see trains on most of the tracks through Columbus during daylight hours. Freight rail seems to mimic Amtrak in this regard: it comes through Ohio in the graveyard hours because it wants to leave the East Coast at a normal time and get to Chicago at a normal one, too.
Maybe I’ve just managed to always miss whenever the trains are coming through town; it’s not like I sit by the tracks and watch, after all. However, I think there has to be enough “free time” to allow local trains to use them at least during rush hours.
Maybe I’ve just managed to always miss whenever the trains are coming through town; it’s not like I sit by the tracks and watch, after all. However, I think there has to be enough “free time” to allow local trains to use them at least during rush hours.
You might want to check out lines 2 and 14 here:
http://www.morpc.org/transportation/freight/rail_inventory.asp
It claims a “high volume of rail traffic” on line 2 (parallel to I-71), but I’m not sure when that occurs or how it affects the ability to run commuter trains. I’d be all about running commuter service on the same line, but I think we’d want to build a few more stations than just one in Powell or Worthington.
Wow. Dreaming pretty big there. Sounds like you’re setting yourself up for some big disappointment. :oops:
Grand Central Terminal wasn’t built when the first rail line was put into place there. Much like the old Union Station here in Columbus, it was the third building on the site and was constructed due to massive waves of growth in passenger rail over the span of several decades.
I’d be impressed if we had a fully enclosed building by 2010 for rail line number one. Most likely we’ll just have a boarding platform with an overhead shelter to keep the rain/snow off of the people waiting. And if we do have something better, then I’ll be pleasantly surprised that my expectations are exceeded. ;)
Baby steps…. baby steps….
Hmm, I’m obviously not too familiar with what MORPC was thinking when they wrote this, but it reads to me like this was written in anticipation of responding to proposals to take out the tracks entirely for other purposes, not use the existing tracks entirely for other purposes:
Due to the high volume of rail traffic on the line, it appears unlikely that the entire width of the ROW will become available for other purposes in the near future, but as explained above, portions of the combined Line 2 & 3 ROWs could be combined for alternate transport use.
The development of additional transportation modes within the lines’ excess ROW is restricted at several points along the line.
In other words, what MORPC appears to be not-so-subtly lobbying against here is taking unused land currently in the ROW [right-of-way] and repurposing to other uses (more roads, bike path, cattle run, particle accelerator, whatever).
Of course, they do state that traffic is “high volume,” but does that mean one train per hour? Every four hours? If it’s one train every 4+ hours, even if that’s a massive train, that would leave many gaps for commuter rail.
At the very least, Amtrak shares rail with freight traffic. I’m pretty sure regional rail on the East Coast likewise uses the same tracks as freight traffic. I’m not sure whether portions of the El in Philly are running on intercity/freight rail tracks, but I wouldn’t be surprised; I’d be interested in knowing more how other cities do it, at a minimum.
Wow. Dreaming pretty big there. Sounds like you’re setting yourself up for some big disappointment. :oops:
Grand Central Terminal wasn’t built when the first rail line was put into place there. Much like the old Union Station here in Columbus, it was the third building on the site and was constructed due to massive waves of growth in passenger rail over the span of several decades.
I’d be impressed if we had a fully enclosed building by 2010 for rail line number one. Most likely we’ll just have a boarding platform with an overhead shelter to keep the rain/snow off of the people waiting. And if we do have something better, then I’ll be pleasantly surprised that my expectations are exceeded. ;)
Baby steps…. baby steps….
Indeed. I’d say that a “Grand Central” sized terminal would be too big for Columbus. I see no reason we would need 58 tracks in the near or long term. Portland has Union Station with something like 4 tracks and Seattle has King Street with 6 tracks and they are more than able to serve their communities. Even Shinjuku Station has 35 tracks (including subway) servicing something like 2.5 Million (IIRC) ppl a day.
I’d rather have a 2 track shed that is actually serving Columbus than some unbuilt 55 track monstrosity we don’t actually need.